General > General Technical Chat
Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home!
coppercone2:
I find amazon to be a dishonest seller that likes to mess with stuff, whoever is shipping that crap
My blender was missing a gasket and like 1/2 the accessories
welding stuff came with the wrong parts and dodgy fitup (very good fakes?)
new stuff comes with dust and scratches
SiliconWizard:
--- Quote from: tom66 on June 13, 2023, 11:06:48 pm ---
--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 13, 2023, 10:49:14 pm ---
--- Quote from: MK14 on June 13, 2023, 10:40:03 pm ---
--- Quote ---We reserve the right to refuse any Amazon Services or terminate accounts if your behaviour gives justified reason to do so.
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
I've never read such a stupid statement in a ToS, how can anyone agree to this?
OTOH, written this way, I don't think it would hold any value in court. So the guy should sue and curb the crap out of Amazon.
--- End quote ---
Not a lawyer but doubt a lawsuit would go anywhere.
I'm pretty sure that a company can refuse to give service to almost anyone (...)
--- End quote ---
Well, I don't think so, unless maybe it's explicitely expressed by the company. In Amazon's case, I've never seen it stated anywhere that they reserved the right to give service to anyone at their discretion, as long as customers respect the ToS. I think that would be quite shocking. That's something you can sometimes see in restaurants, bars and night clubs. And even so, that's usually written on the door.
Once a service has been sold to a customer, that's actually what the ToS are for. It's like a contract, both parties are supposed to abide by the terms. As long as said terms are not against the law, obviously disproportionate, or way too vague to be applicable.
In this case, my point is that the quoted term, "if your behaviour gives justified reason to do so", is so outrageously vague and unrelated (or at least not related in direct and expliciut ways) to the service that it just can't be enforced and thus wouldn't hold 5 min in court, if this is indeed the term that Amazon used to justify its action.
You can hardly state something more vague than this. What does "your behaviour" entail? In what context? What is a justified reason? If I'm wearing a hat, that sounds like a behaviour, and Amazon doesn't like that, it can find it justified to terminate my account?
When terms are too vague in a contract, they are usually not enforceable.
.RC.:
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on June 13, 2023, 11:52:33 am ---
That's old news.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-uplus-launches-iot-for-bathrooms-with-wi-fi-bidet-toilet/
--- End quote ---
Goodness me. What are the settings
1. Feather duster.
2. Normal.
3. Enema.
4. Goatse. (no don't google that if you do not know what it is)
John B:
--- Quote from: .RC. on June 14, 2023, 05:26:34 am ---
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on June 13, 2023, 11:52:33 am ---
That's old news.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-uplus-launches-iot-for-bathrooms-with-wi-fi-bidet-toilet/
--- End quote ---
Goodness me. What are the settings
1. Feather duster.
2. Normal.
3. Enema.
4. Goatse. (no don't google that if you do not know what it is)
--- End quote ---
Pro-Lapser 5000 ™
tom66:
--- Quote from: MK14 on June 14, 2023, 12:07:55 am ---I suppose an analogy, would be if an energy company, provided electricity, gas, water, TV/on-demand (like Netflix) and phone services, to your home.
Then, because of a misunderstanding as to what your automatic doorbell voice said to a meter reader or other energy provider representative (e.g. for smart meters), they thought it sounded racist.
So, all your services (Electricity, gas, water, TV/on-demand and phone services), were permanently cut-off from your home, because of this.
There would be a huge out-cry, it could be dangerous to some more vulnerable members of society and could make the home semi-unsellable (or unrentable).
So, in the same way, an Electricity company in the UK, CAN'T disconnect your electricity supply, without extremely good reasons indeed and perhaps a court order as well. E.g. Because you haven't paid for electricity for the last 15 months, and refuse or can't pay.
This (suspension and/or banning) could be an issue.
--- End quote ---
The difference is a smart home is a convenience. These systems are not usually essential. Loss of electricity, water or gas could kill someone. Telephone service arguably could be important for emergency services (though I think you can still call emergency/999 without a contract?)
--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 14, 2023, 05:15:16 am ---Well, I don't think so, unless maybe it's explicitely expressed by the company. In Amazon's case, I've never seen it stated anywhere that they reserved the right to give service to anyone at their discretion, as long as customers respect the ToS. I think that would be quite shocking. That's something you can sometimes see in restaurants, bars and night clubs. And even so, that's usually written on the door.
Once a service has been sold to a customer, that's actually what the ToS are for. It's like a contract, both parties are supposed to abide by the terms. As long as said terms are not against the law, obviously disproportionate, or way too vague to be applicable.
In this case, my point is that the quoted term, "if your behaviour gives justified reason to do so", is so outrageously vague and unrelated (or at least not related in direct and expliciut ways) to the service that it just can't be enforced and thus wouldn't hold 5 min in court, if this is indeed the term that Amazon used to justify its action.
You can hardly state something more vague than this. What does "your behaviour" entail? In what context? What is a justified reason? If I'm wearing a hat, that sounds like a behaviour, and Amazon doesn't like that, it can find it justified to terminate my account?
When terms are too vague in a contract, they are usually not enforceable.
--- End quote ---
Is it really any different from say Costco kicking out someone who's abusive to their staff? "Oh, but I have a Costco membership! It's still good for another 7 months!" Well, they reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason, the only reasons they can't decline service are on the basis of sex, race, etc., because those are protected characteristics. There are plenty of T&C documents that have conditions like this and usually, there's no refund to the customer, though perhaps that could be the point of a lawsuit but who is going to sue over ~$1k of smart home kit? As I said it's not like the kit is useless so it hasn't lost value in that way, it just can't be used with the Amazon account. Most of those smart bulbs can be paired with other systems. I guess the Alexa's are lost value.
I don't think the terms are vague in this contract either. The term is basically "we reserve the right to not do business with you for any reason whatsoever". The only case that couldn't apply would be a violation of equal protection.
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