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| Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home! |
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| wraper:
--- Quote from: tom66 on June 14, 2023, 08:34:52 am ---Is it really any different from say Costco kicking out someone who's abusive to their staff? "Oh, but I have a Costco membership! It's still good for another 7 months!" Well, they reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason, the only reasons they can't decline service are on the basis of sex, race, etc., because those are protected characteristics. There are plenty of T&C documents that have conditions like this and usually, there's no refund to the customer, though perhaps that could be the point of a lawsuit but who is going to sue over ~$1k of smart home kit? As I said it's not like the kit is useless so it hasn't lost value in that way, it just can't be used with the Amazon account. Most of those smart bulbs can be paired with other systems. I guess the Alexa's are lost value. I don't think the terms are vague in this contract either. The term is basically "we reserve the right to not do business with you for any reason whatsoever". The only case that couldn't apply would be a violation of equal protection. --- End quote --- It's like Costco kicking you out and remotely disabling a TV you bought from them a year ago. |
| tom66:
--- Quote from: wraper on June 14, 2023, 09:50:00 am --- --- Quote from: tom66 on June 14, 2023, 08:34:52 am ---Is it really any different from say Costco kicking out someone who's abusive to their staff? "Oh, but I have a Costco membership! It's still good for another 7 months!" Well, they reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason, the only reasons they can't decline service are on the basis of sex, race, etc., because those are protected characteristics. There are plenty of T&C documents that have conditions like this and usually, there's no refund to the customer, though perhaps that could be the point of a lawsuit but who is going to sue over ~$1k of smart home kit? As I said it's not like the kit is useless so it hasn't lost value in that way, it just can't be used with the Amazon account. Most of those smart bulbs can be paired with other systems. I guess the Alexa's are lost value. I don't think the terms are vague in this contract either. The term is basically "we reserve the right to not do business with you for any reason whatsoever". The only case that couldn't apply would be a violation of equal protection. --- End quote --- It's like Costco kicking you out and remotely disabling a TV you bought from them a year ago. --- End quote --- No, it's more like if Costco ran a streaming service, call it 'Cosflix', as part of your membership and that got cancelled along with your store membership. So you lost access to that function on your (euck) "smart" TV. But you could still turn it on and off. (Smart bulbs still work with normal light switches.) |
| wraper:
--- Quote from: tom66 on June 14, 2023, 10:07:30 am --- --- Quote from: wraper on June 14, 2023, 09:50:00 am --- --- Quote from: tom66 on June 14, 2023, 08:34:52 am ---Is it really any different from say Costco kicking out someone who's abusive to their staff? "Oh, but I have a Costco membership! It's still good for another 7 months!" Well, they reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason, the only reasons they can't decline service are on the basis of sex, race, etc., because those are protected characteristics. There are plenty of T&C documents that have conditions like this and usually, there's no refund to the customer, though perhaps that could be the point of a lawsuit but who is going to sue over ~$1k of smart home kit? As I said it's not like the kit is useless so it hasn't lost value in that way, it just can't be used with the Amazon account. Most of those smart bulbs can be paired with other systems. I guess the Alexa's are lost value. I don't think the terms are vague in this contract either. The term is basically "we reserve the right to not do business with you for any reason whatsoever". The only case that couldn't apply would be a violation of equal protection. --- End quote --- It's like Costco kicking you out and remotely disabling a TV you bought from them a year ago. --- End quote --- No, it's more like if Costco ran a streaming service, call it 'Cosflix', as part of your membership and that got cancelled along with your store membership. So you lost access to that function on your (euck) "smart" TV. But you could still turn it on and off. (Smart bulbs still work with normal light switches.) --- End quote --- Even if lights still worked which is not necessary true as those could be regular bulbs with a separate device controlling their power, at least some of the devices he purchased were rendered totally useless on a whim of Amazon. |
| Zero999:
--- Quote from: thm_w on June 12, 2023, 11:10:18 pm ---What would you possibly sue for? OK heres your $40 back for Alexa. --- End quote --- He should be refunded for his now useless devices, plus any additional costs he would have incurred. --- Quote from: Kim Christensen on June 13, 2023, 07:57:38 pm --- --- Quote from: mendip_discovery on June 13, 2023, 05:37:00 pm ---Try to think what the headline and story would be if they hadn't reacted. Staff member left traumatised after customer sayint racist abuse, company didnt care and left the staff member having to quit their job as nobody in corporate would listen to them or take action against the customer. It could he quite serious if a company is seen a complicent in a racist situation. Bad PR and potential for a lawsuit. --- End quote --- I don't think that's the issue here. The problem is a case of the customer being treated as if he's guilty by default. A proper investigation should have been done before any action was taken against the customer. Doesn't matter whether you agree if the punishment fits the "crime" or not. I think this is the argument against using Amazon home automation systems and cloud based items like it: You're at the mercy of a large corporation "doing the right thing" which is never a wise consumer choice. --- End quote --- That's fairy typical for how racism claims work these days: guilty until proven innocent. --- Quote from: tom66 on June 13, 2023, 11:06:48 pm --- --- Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 13, 2023, 10:49:14 pm --- --- Quote from: MK14 on June 13, 2023, 10:40:03 pm --- --- Quote ---We reserve the right to refuse any Amazon Services or terminate accounts if your behaviour gives justified reason to do so. --- End quote --- --- End quote --- I've never read such a stupid statement in a ToS, how can anyone agree to this? OTOH, written this way, I don't think it would hold any value in court. So the guy should sue and curb the crap out of Amazon. --- End quote --- Not a lawyer but doubt a lawsuit would go anywhere. I'm pretty sure that a company can refuse to give service to almost anyone providing they're not discriminating on a protected term (so they can't refuse to serve you if you're gay, but they can refuse to serve you if you're homophobic, because homophobia isn't a protected characteristic.) 14th amendment I think? --- End quote --- This is in the US, so I don't know which groups have protection under law. In the UK this would be covered under the 2010 equalities act, which protects against discrimination on the grounds of race, religion, sexual orientation, amongst a few other things. The problem is, what is deemed to be homophobic is open to interpretation. For example, an organisation might consider someone who expresses the view that same sex marriage shouldn't be allowed, to be homophobic. If this results in said person's account being terminated, then the organisation could get into trouble for religious discrimination, if they claim their view is supported by religious text. --- Quote ---At that point it comes down to whether Amazon had good cause to believe the customer had broken the T&C's. Not au fait on the US legal system, but I would have thought that these things would be determined on the balance of probabilities, as it's a civil matter. Customer can try to sue, but Amazon would argue they acted responsibly based on an employee complaint, and are not obliged to offer service. At best, customer might be entitled to a refund for remaining service costs - e.g. Prime membership. Doubt that would extend to a refund for the devices purchased, they are still usable, just not with the customer's account. --- End quote --- Again, I don't know about the US, but in the UK, consumer protection laws place limits on what contracts companies can impose on customers. For example, it's not acceptable for your water company to cut your supply, without a valid reason. If you make a racist comment to one of their employees then they can contact the police, but they still have to maintain your supply. |
| TimFox:
The spelling varies depending on whether you're using UK or US English: In UK English, “behaviour” (with a “u”) is standard. In US English, “behavior” (with no “u”) is the correct spelling. |
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