Author Topic: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth  (Read 10442 times)

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Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2021, 05:18:19 pm »
Several on here have mentioned doing proper market research to prevent overbuilding of product.  If that worked you wouldn't have such things as TP shortages or bouncing prices of petroleum products.

Note that these are not quite the same things!  As I recall, TP producers never ran out, and shipments from warehouses were always prompt, it was just local (daily) stocking running out (but, I don't know the actual numbers of failure-to-deliver, if any).  Reflecting this, the price hardly changed AFAIK.

Petroleum prices were all over, last year, and that came with some interesting differences.  It's liquid energy, a little too precious to dispose of (or, fortunately for us, illegal to?).  Every barrel of spare capacity was used up (full tankers, anchored anywhere they could), and at some points prices even went negative ("please, for the love of god, TAKE my oil!").  This reflects the knock-on costs of stopping and restarting production (many production systems can't simply be throttled down, and take huge effort to cycle).

(Likewise, the current semiconductor shortage, is in part the consequence of following through on the command to shut down production lines.  If not entirely, then at least the orders that were cancelled prematurely (and impulsively so, it turns out).  And it's taking a long time for those orders to filter through and resume.)

It's actually an interesting pair of examples to contrast.  In one case, production or reserves were ample and prices remained stable; in the other, production was stable but demand went down suddenly, saturating reserves, and sharply reducing the price.  In an earlier time, perhaps the excess production would've indeed been dumped or flared; the Cuyahoga river didn't just catch fire once (though as I understand it, that was more due to industrial runoff/waste, but one could imagine such a direct route as this being employed, given the prices in question..).

Somewhere between these extremes, is likely where common electronic products would land.  (Which is what we're talking about, right?)  Some are fairly trivial to build, just order more from the CM and they're there in a few weeks.  Does assume everything in stock or quick to make (machined/fabricated enclosures may take a few more weeks, new moldings maybe a few more still?), YMMV.  Stock could be tiered with some extra capacity at the business (or getting the CM to hold some, at whatever rate they charge) to minimize excess that Amazon carries directly.  Only ramp up once you have established sales, don't drop a hundred and have to burn almost all of them because the launch failed.  Establish a meaningful (efficient, responsible) RMA program, so returns aren't just shredded.  Etc.

The relative amounts for all of these steps, varies.  Few steps might be applicable to commodity crap that's barely worth its weight in plastic; pricey stuff like laptops, Apple products especially, test equipment, etc. is surely worth returning to supplier, they just need the programs in place to handle that action (and, if they think such programs cut into their profitability (which Apple apparently does, among others), then the externalities would need to be, in effect, applied to them via appropriate laws).


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Bottom line, this waste is the lubricant that allows our society to perform at the level it does.  While some tweaking of the process can and should occur there are only two solutions - accept waste or dramatically reduce the material standards we have become accustomed to.  Well, there is a third, dramatically reducing world population, but there is no way for that to happen in a comfortable, equable way.

How are there only two binary solutions, and not a continuum of compromise, depending on product type / market / scale / etc.?

The third option seems to be, reduce the profit margin standards.  Incorporate externalities into business expenses.  Not that you'll get anyone to support such a thing, certainly not in the current [neoliberal] climate.  But that's the most obvious route to me.

Speaking of population, it seems human birth rates decline as standard of living, and cost of living, rise.  Eliminating excess infant mortality, seems to be a particularly powerful driver.

If that counts as "killing them with kindness", I suppose it does.  But most moral frameworks find it's an acceptable mechanism, to reduce a population by beneficial and voluntary actions.  Put another way: taking a life is immoral, but deciding not to create new life is moral.

Which I think is interesting by itself, as common moral frameworks are built around the individual, or groups thereof; up to scales of whole societies perhaps (e.g. rule utilitarianism), but still within a horizon of individual lifetimes.  Traditional moral systems don't seem to say much at all about behavior of the superorganism, over evolutionary, let alone geologic, time scales (1ka+).  Such is still very much in the domain of raw evolutionary realism: the entity continues to exist, or it ceases to, and that's that; no cosmic power cares one way or the other.  (Well, beyond the inevitable march of entropy, which stands to "benefit" from the catalytic effect of life as we know it.)

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Offline Trader

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2021, 06:43:35 pm »
I while ago Dave donated some 121GW DMMs returned to Amazon because they would destroy if he does nothing.  I think Amazon destroys most of these products because the Sellers won't care.

I still blaming Amazon, but maybe the real culprits are the sellers that won't pay for returning and won't allow a donation or a huge discount.

BTW, there are worst practices. Big companies as Xerox, bought entire lots of thousands of printers from competitors just to Destroy everything and avoid these products/Brand reach the retail market.

Walmart does the same, they ask to a company give them a huge discount, if the company refuses, they buy the entire lot but never sell it to public.

Microsoft forces to pre-install Windows, otherwise, that laptop won't work with windows post-installed, and who the customers will blame?

My COLLEGE, after some social event, Everything goes to the garbage, I mean, All the thousands of Unused Plates, Cups, tableware, etc are discarded, for them, this is just a value already incorporated in the event cost.

My City, a lot of TVs goes to garbage (real garbage, not the clean Dave's dumpster) just because that person want's a new TV.  (another day I saved a 55", working).

This is a society totally disposable and destructive.
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2021, 08:02:15 pm »
Walmart does the same, they ask to a company give them a huge discount, if the company refuses, they buy the entire lot but never sell it to public.
How does the company lose here?
I'd happily keep selling to Walmart under those terms. Do you have any idea what Walmart would like to buy and then just not sell? I'm flexible.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2021, 08:46:22 pm »
Walmart does the same, they ask to a company give them a huge discount, if the company refuses, they buy the entire lot but never sell it to public.
How does the company lose here?
I'd happily keep selling to Walmart under those terms. Do you have any idea what Walmart would like to buy and then just not sell? I'm flexible.
I think he might have misunderstood a trick. People like Walmart will insist that a producer agree to accept all unsold units back, to be redeemed at their original cost. If a producer annoys the buyer, the buyer may buy a large quantity of something, hold them in storage for a while, then send them back to the producer as unsold. Now the producer has a huge pile of stuff, probably branded up with the buyer's name. which they can't sell. Next time around they will be more accommodating to the buyer's needs. The producer can't just walk away, as the buyer represents too large a percentage of the market.
 
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Offline Trader

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2021, 08:51:12 pm »
Walmart does the same, they ask to a company give them a huge discount, if the company refuses, they buy the entire lot but never sell it to public.
How does the company lose here?
I'd happily keep selling to Walmart under those terms. Do you have any idea what Walmart would like to buy and then just not sell? I'm flexible.

You have a great product/idea and want to Release it to the Public by selling in a big marketplace with hundreds of stores.

They require you 50% profit margin, and you say NO; they say OK and buy all your 6-month production (or even buy your company) (with a huge discount).  They don't sell it to the public and find someone else to produce the same thing or improved, they create a brand passion. This new company now is the market leader, and nobody knows or cares about you.

They are flexible too, but if your product is crap, they never will buy it from you. ;)
 

Offline Trader

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2021, 08:57:53 pm »
People like Walmart will insist that a producer agree to accept all unsold units back, to be redeemed at their original cost. If a producer annoys the buyer, the buyer may buy a large quantity of something, hold them in storage for a while, then send them back to the producer as unsold. Now the producer has a huge pile of stuff, probably branded up with the buyer's name. which they can't sell. Next time around they will be more accommodating to the buyer's needs. The producer can't just walk away, as the buyer represents too large a percentage of the market.

Another good strategy.  Some news about China:  they buy a ship of raw material, like soybean (a real example), when the ship arrives in China, they say "I didn't like it, seems GMO, return it", the producer to avoid lost all the costs in transportation accept to give a 70% discount.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2021, 10:12:31 pm »
People like Walmart will insist that a producer agree to accept all unsold units back, to be redeemed at their original cost. If a producer annoys the buyer, the buyer may buy a large quantity of something, hold them in storage for a while, then send them back to the producer as unsold. Now the producer has a huge pile of stuff, probably branded up with the buyer's name. which they can't sell. Next time around they will be more accommodating to the buyer's needs. The producer can't just walk away, as the buyer represents too large a percentage of the market.

Another good strategy.  Some news about China:  they buy a ship of raw material, like soybean (a real example), when the ship arrives in China, they say "I didn't like it, seems GMO, return it", the producer to avoid lost all the costs in transportation accept to give a 70% discount.
Would Walmart or Amazon buy a buttload of goods from China, sit on it for a while, then return it? That would be interesting.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2021, 03:29:49 am »
People like Walmart will insist that a producer agree to accept all unsold units back, to be redeemed at their original cost. If a producer annoys the buyer, the buyer may buy a large quantity of something, hold them in storage for a while, then send them back to the producer as unsold. Now the producer has a huge pile of stuff, probably branded up with the buyer's name. which they can't sell. Next time around they will be more accommodating to the buyer's needs. The producer can't just walk away, as the buyer represents too large a percentage of the market.

Another good strategy.  Some news about China:  they buy a ship of raw material, like soybean (a real example), when the ship arrives in China, they say "I didn't like it, seems GMO, return it", the producer to avoid lost all the costs in transportation accept to give a 70% discount.
Would Walmart or Amazon buy a buttload of goods from China, sit on it for a while, then return it? That would be interesting.
Manufacturers in China are so eager for business from Walmart, that Walmart can play all sorts of games with them, and do.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2021, 01:39:28 pm »
The clear and easy solution is to outsource these operations to small local businesses. They can work with less overhead, and spend more time evaluating a returned or an overstocked item, and do appropriate actions, and get it to people in need or lower income people without online presence.

Supermarkets and others have here a program called "Too good to go" where they group together food, that was going to expire in a short time, and sell it deeply discounted. You often have no idea what you might be getting, and the basket is way to big usually, but it is an effort to reduce waste.
On the other hand I don't think Amazon is the worst offender here. There was this huge article that Zara H&M, and other fast fashion companies, instead of selling stock discounted, simply burns the remaining clothing. Because they want to keep it as a premium brand, and they want to charge way too much money for their clothing. Premium not by quality, by price. Status symbol. So we cannot have people getting it cheap.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2021, 02:49:58 pm »
And if someone gets sick or die from expired food poisoning, who wants to be held accountable?
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Offline sokoloff

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2021, 03:31:25 pm »
Expiration dates are overwhelmingly quality/taste/freshness related, rather than food-safety related.

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/food-safety/safe-food-handling-and-preparation/food-safety-basics/food-product-dating
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2021, 03:35:51 pm »
And if someone gets sick or die from expired food poisoning, who wants to be held accountable?
They are not supposed to sell you expired stuff.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2021, 05:34:42 pm »
Expiration dates are overwhelmingly quality/taste/freshness related, rather than food-safety related.

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/food-safety/safe-food-handling-and-preparation/food-safety-basics/food-product-dating

In the UK this is codified as "Best Before" dates for 'freshness' related things and "Use By" for food safety related things. So a packet of biscuits will get a "Best Before" date and a packet of raw meat will get a "Use By" date.
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Offline Circlotron

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2021, 11:17:11 pm »
There was this huge article that Zara H&M, and other fast fashion companies, instead of selling stock discounted, simply burns the remaining clothing. Because they want to keep it as a premium brand, and they want to charge way too much money for their clothing. Premium not by quality, by price. Status symbol. So we cannot have people getting it cheap.
So they only get to rip off feather brained people that have too much money, and not poor people. I can live with that.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2021, 02:35:05 pm »
I really don't get the economics of this, especially for higher-valued items.  Rather than destroying the stock, would it not be advantageous for whomever owns it to sell it at a deep discount?  Or is that harder to do than it sounds?

The destruction like likely the cost of selling, fulfillment, plus book keeping exceeded the profit of the sale.  So rather than throwing good money after bad, the wise choice for the seller might well be just path of minimum additional lost.

The logical (and ridiculous) extension of this is telling Amazon 'I don't want this item, but give me a refund and I'm prepared to dispose of it at no further cost to you'.

I have had several faulty items from Amazon on which they have refunded me or replaced the item and told me to dispose of the item or do whatever I wanted with it. On a couple of occasions I have repaired the item and continued to use it, but from amazons perspective it was cheaper to let me keep the item than pay for it to be returned. It is also not just Amazon that has the problem of returned goods due to British and EU law we have the right to return any item purchased on the internet within fourteen days without question, so particularly during the present Covid 19 situation there will be plenty of items returned which for hygiene reasons is just going to get dumped as Amazon is just not going to take risks.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2021, 03:18:41 pm »
wait, why don't they just sell it at a discount? why just destroy/throw them away?  :--
And then the people who bought it at a discount would also want product support and want to return the items and want a refund, how Amazon is supposed to handle that. No consumer laws regulating this type of sale i guess.
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Offline nigelwright7557

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2021, 02:38:47 am »
I sell a bit on ebay so decided to try Amazon.
My listings despite being cheapest came way down in the listings.
Even if you found my listings there is no buy it now button next to them !
So emailed Amazon to find out what is going on.
1/ You have to earn a buy it now button by selling lots of items.
2/ You have to earn listing position by selling lots of items.
So how do I sell lots if it doesnt show up and when it does no buy button ?

I guess its their business to run the way they want but I certainly wont be buying from them.
 


 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2021, 02:50:58 am »
Ridiculous, isn't it?

The whole point was to connect buyers and sellers but instead be both wander the maze aimlessly in search of hidden cheese.

As a buyer, sometimes I wonder if the algo does indeed detect what I want and obfuscates the search result deliberately.

Think I'm nuts? Do a search. Now, nuke your cookies and turn on a VPN.
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Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #68 on: July 15, 2021, 03:17:58 am »
I suspect similar.  Likely a frustrating or ill-defined interface drives metrics like "engagement".

There are few things I've shopped for on Amazon that were at all easy to find.  (I shop very little there, maybe a few times a year.)

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Offline nigelwright7557

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2021, 06:29:45 pm »
I recently used Amazon Web Services for a website.
After 3 days fighting a error 403 I gave up and signed up for AWS support.
The next 14 days were completely useless with just suggestions that were available for free in help pages !

It really needed someone to take my project and run it through AWS and see why it wasnt running.
AWS basicially said that my website had uploaded ok with green status so they had done their bit.
I even tried using Visual Studio with AWS tool kit and that failed too.
I found a suggestion that my runserver.py file should be application.py The Visual Studio template generates runserver.py

So I tried zipping up my project and eventually managed to get something running.
The next problem was my website couldnt send emails.
The exception was access was denied.
So  I looked up that problem and AWS block emails.

AWS is very slow, bloated, complicated and not easy to use.
I used elastic beanstalk which has 3 levels, elastic beanstalk, S3 and EC2.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2021, 11:20:02 pm »
Amazon has just removed, as demanded by the Chinese Communist Party, Xi's book reviews and ratings. This is because if Xi's books do not get five stars, the the cult dictator will lose face. Bezos is a traitor to free speech.
 
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Offline eugene

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Re: Amazon: the shittiest, most ghastly company on earth
« Reply #71 on: December 23, 2021, 12:24:15 am »
First, I'll be honest and reveal that I have not read the entire thread, so sorry if this is a repost:

https://youtu.be/dd7ySopIwog

The simple fact is that it's a matter of economics. Somebody that went to college for economics (not EE) decides if it's better for the bottom line to destroy the stuff or do something else with it.
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