Author Topic: AMD Ryzen - New CPU Series that is cheaper but better then Intel Core I Series  (Read 22619 times)

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Offline Terrius

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Whats to stop intel changing to quad core/8 thread low end and standardising 8 core/16 thread mid and high end?  their individual cores are still better than Ryzen and as I understand it, would obliterate them in one swoop.  Intel also have the manufacturing grunt to take a hit on profits and make them cheaper - now they actually have some competition

At this point Intel's biggest issue is that they still dedicate a large portion of their die to on board graphics. In order to make a mainstream 8 core 16 thread they would have to scrap the IGPU.  They've had no competition in the last few years that would drive them to find a way to move 8 core CPUs into the mainstream.

Whether you are an AMD fan, or Intel fan, the biggest thing to take away from Ryzen is that it will (hopefully) drive some healthy competition and innovation in the CPU industry again. Intel has had basically a Monopoly for the last 5-10 years and every year Intel has become more and more complacent offering poorer and poorer gains for more and more money. If AMD can chip some of the market away from them it will force them to start innovating again instead of maintaining their status quo of stagnation!

In the end, if Ryzen is as great as AMD says it will be a Win-Win for everyone.

Offline Monkeh

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At this point Intel's biggest issue is that they still dedicate a large portion of their die to on board graphics.

Pretty sure the GPU's gone off-die.
 

Offline Terrius

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At this point Intel's biggest issue is that they still dedicate a large portion of their die to on board graphics.

Pretty sure the GPU's gone off-die.

Only in their extreme chips, all of their mainstream chips have an integrated Graphics core. The Intel I7 7700K has about 30% of it's die used up by their IGPU.  If they removed the GPU they'd have plenty of room to make impressive 6 core CPUs, and surely if AMD can make an 8 core CPU on a smaller area die than Intel (Ryzen die: 44mm2 VS Intel 7700K die: 49mm2), Intel could figure out how to fit 8 cores into their die sizes.

You can see the die Shot of the 7700K here:
http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2017/01/intel-core-i7-7700k-i5-7600k-review/die-shot-1920x1080.png
 
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Offline Monkeh

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At this point Intel's biggest issue is that they still dedicate a large portion of their die to on board graphics.

Pretty sure the GPU's gone off-die.

Only in their extreme chips, all of their mainstream chips have an integrated Graphics core. The Intel I7 7700K has about 30% of it's die used up by their IGPU.  If they removed the GPU they'd have plenty of room to make impressive 6 core CPUs, and surely if AMD can make an 8 core CPU on a smaller area die than Intel (Ryzen die: 44mm2 VS Intel 7700K die: 49mm2), Intel could figure out how to fit 8 cores into their die sizes.

You can see the die Shot of the 7700K here:
http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2017/01/intel-core-i7-7700k-i5-7600k-review/die-shot-1920x1080.png

Well, a large number of the current gen have.. two dies. So what's #2?
 

Offline Terrius

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Well, a large number of the current gen have.. two dies. So what's #2?

Not sure, unless you are referring to the Northbridge die which is integrated onto the same package as the CPU itself? Do you have a link referencing the 2nd die anywhere?

Offline Monkeh

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Well, a large number of the current gen have.. two dies. So what's #2?

Not sure, unless you are referring to the Northbridge die which is integrated onto the same package as the CPU itself? Do you have a link referencing the 2nd die anywhere?

'Northbridge'? That's in the image you showed - it's called a memory controller.

Look at any 14nm mobile CPU. I suppose it could be the eDRAM, but I don't see why they'd bother for all the chips which.. don't have eDRAM.
 

Offline Terrius

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Well, a large number of the current gen have.. two dies. So what's #2?

Not sure, unless you are referring to the Northbridge die which is integrated onto the same package as the CPU itself? Do you have a link referencing the 2nd die anywhere?

'Northbridge'? That's in the image you showed - it's called a memory controller.

Look at any 14nm mobile CPU. I suppose it could be the eDRAM, but I don't see why they'd bother for all the chips which.. don't have eDRAM.
-EDIT-
I confused union point as an on-die chipset, I was incorrect. There has only been 1 die on intel processors since the I series was released


   Also the Mobile CPUs die and package are different than the Desktop chips to which I am referring.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 04:01:53 am by Terrius »
 

Offline ovnr

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'Northbridge'? That's in the image you showed - it's called a memory controller.

Look at any 14nm mobile CPU. I suppose it could be the eDRAM, but I don't see why they'd bother for all the chips which.. don't have eDRAM.

... no. Intel CPUs have had an (on-die) integrated memory controller for *years*.

All desktop 7th generation parts are single-die parts under the lid, with an integrated GPU. I do know that some mobile parts ship with 128MB eDRAM, but there could also be SoC variants with a on-package chipset.
 

Offline Monkeh

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There is a separate chipset die on the CPU package as well

Feel free to point it out:



Quote
The 200 series chipset (Union Point) would be an additional die on the package. Which controls the PCI-E lanes, intel VT-D, SATA, SATAe, PCIe M.2, USB V3.0 and 2.0.

.. That's a PCH. It's not even on the package.

Quote
It's not to be confused however with the south bridge chip set that is different based on the motherboard series.

And that's not a southbridge, it's a PCH.
 

Offline Terrius

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There is a separate chipset die on the CPU package as well

Feel free to point it out:



Quote
The 200 series chipset (Union Point) would be an additional die on the package. Which controls the PCI-E lanes, intel VT-D, SATA, SATAe, PCIe M.2, USB V3.0 and 2.0.

.. That's a PCH. It's not even on the package.

Quote
It's not to be confused however with the south bridge chip set that is different based on the motherboard series.

And that's not a southbridge, it's a PCH.

Yeah I apologize I got confused, I assumed you had a reason to believe there was a second die and I used a quick google search to find out what it possibly was. The image you linked confirms that the die shot I posted was the entire die and there is no secondary die.

Offline Monkeh

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I assumed you had a reason to believe there was a second die

I do:



I'm guessing they just populate the eDRAM on everything.
 

Online blueskull

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Regarding to double die on package:
1. Core 2 Quad has 2 dual core dice on the same substrate.
2. First generation laptop Core i (Arrandale) has 2 dice, one for GPU, one for CPU.
3. Intel Crystalwell (eDRAM) for Haswell, Broadwell and Skylake is a second die copackaged with CPU. This applied to both desktop, workstation and laptop SKUs. This only affects GT3e GPU SKUs.
4. Some SKUs of Intel Xeon Phi KNC will have a copackaged HBM memory chip on its substrate.
5. (Rumor) Some LGA3467 Skylake server chips will have an Altera FPGA copackaged.
6. Intel Atom E6x5C processors have a Altera Arria II 40k LUT FPGA copackaged.

Reference: I've used 123, worked on 6, saw die photos of 4 and heard about 5.
 

Offline Monkeh

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3. Intel Crystalwell (eDRAM) for Haswell, Broadwell and Skylake is a second die copackaged with CPU. This applied to both desktop, workstation and laptop SKUs. This only affects GT3e GPU SKUs.

Please explain the above, then.
 

Offline Terrius

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I assumed you had a reason to believe there was a second die

I do:



I'm guessing they just populate the eDRAM on everything.

That would seem to make sense, I haven't payed much attention to the mobile CPU market. It doesn't really impact me at all.

It would seem the point of confusion was you were referencing mobile CPUs and I was talking about desktop CPUs.

Is it still true that all but the HQ and HK I7 mobile chips only have dual cores and aren't actually quad cores? I remember that being an annoying clarification that people couldn't understand when I sold laptops.

Online blueskull

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3. Intel Crystalwell (eDRAM) for Haswell, Broadwell and Skylake is a second die copackaged with CPU. This applied to both desktop, workstation and laptop SKUs. This only affects GT3e GPU SKUs.

Please explain the above, then.
 

Offline Monkeh

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3. Intel Crystalwell (eDRAM) for Haswell, Broadwell and Skylake is a second die copackaged with CPU. This applied to both desktop, workstation and laptop SKUs. This only affects GT3e GPU SKUs.

Please explain the above, then.

That is not a GT3e part.
 

Online blueskull

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3. Intel Crystalwell (eDRAM) for Haswell, Broadwell and Skylake is a second die copackaged with CPU. This applied to both desktop, workstation and laptop SKUs. This only affects GT3e GPU SKUs.

Please explain the above, then.

That is not a GT3e part.

Ahhh, I forgot to mention, Intel ULP chips (starting from Haswell, probably, or earlier from SNB/IVB) has a particular package that integrates CPU and PCH, which is the one you showed before.
PS. If you can find a photo of the back side, you will find some more interesting thing.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Okay, yes, you're right, I forgot about the U part. Seeing as they effectively all are now.
 

Offline Muxr

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I pre-ordered a Ryzen 1800X. This thing is looking like a beast. Should make compiling and FPGA synthesis much faster.
 

Offline Homer J Simpson

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Offline grumpydoc

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Well, this is going to make my next choice of motherboard & CPU interesting.

I am totally agnostic in the AMD vs Intel debate and do not feel at all loyal to either side. That said all but one PC I have bought or put together has had an Intel CPU because they have had the better performing CPUs for pretty well forever.

It is, as has been said, really nice to see AMD back in there with some serious competition.

 :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+
 

Offline BradC

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The fanboy hysteria is building at quite a rate. It's actually far more amusing to watch than I thought possible. Between the genuine leaks, the fake leaks and the half-arsed speculation from kids pretending to know what they are talking about it is generating thread after thread of pissing contests.

I still want one, but not enough to drop the cash before I read some solid benchmarks.

 

Offline David Hess

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I still want one, but not enough to drop the cash before I read some solid benchmarks.

I cannot imagine preordering a processor whether from AMD or Intel.  Waiting a couple months saved from from a crippled Phenom I.
 

Offline BradC

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I still want one, but not enough to drop the cash before I read some solid benchmarks.

I cannot imagine preordering a processor whether from AMD or Intel.  Waiting a couple months saved from from a crippled Phenom I.

I bought a Bulldozer anyway. I upgraded it to a Piledriver the next year, and to be honest both are still doing the job they were bought for. Right tool for the right job at the right price though. I've always been a bit of an AMD fan. I retired a K6-2 300 from 24/7 service only last week.

 

Offline wraper

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I still want one, but not enough to drop the cash before I read some solid benchmarks.

I cannot imagine preordering a processor whether from AMD or Intel.  Waiting a couple months saved from from a crippled Phenom I.
Yep, regardless of how much I want it, I'll wait a little bit. Don't want to be a beta tester. Or run into suboptimal component match.
 


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