Author Topic: AMD Ryzen - New CPU Series that is cheaper but better then Intel Core I Series  (Read 22665 times)

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Offline RGB255_0_0

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AMD Q&A on Reddit:- https://as.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/5x4hxu/we_are_amd_creators_of_athlon_radeon_and_other/

Why there is huge discrepancy is gaming benchmarks for reviewers today? Is this something related to BIOS update?
It seems that disabling SMT significantly improves performance in some games. Probably virtual cores get the load while the rest of real cores stay idle.
On the other hand, when using real graphics settings in games, there is no difference between the CPUs in the vast majority of cases. Who buys $300+ CPU and plays @1366x768 resolution?
1080P is still the most common. Valve's hardware surveys show that. In that case the Intel chips are better. But the reason why they use these resolutions is to show how each CPU/architecture scales.

It's pointless showing 4K benchmarks of a CPU when 5-year-old processors perform the same as the one just come out - that's just showing a GPU limit.

Ryzen is a great workstation CPU, bad at workloads which fail to make use of multi-threading and SMT as you said. IPC and single core is better on Kaby Lake, and better overall chipset capabilities.
Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 

Offline BradC

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It seems that disabling SMT significantly improves performance in some games. Probably virtual cores get the load while the rest of real cores stay idle.

There has been an interesting point on this. The processor is made from 2 4-core clusters, and each has its own L3. The cluster to cluster L3 bandwitdh is about 1/4 of the core to L3 bandwidth. People were noticing windows shuttling tasks between cores (as it does), and every time a task gets moved to a core on the other cluster it either severely impacts cache performance or generates a cache miss. It will be interesting to see what happens when they patch windows to be aware of the logical core layout (much like they had to do with the bulldozer architecture).

Not that I really care as I don't use Windows.

On the whole, AMD did better than they said they would and really delivered. They never promised it to be an Intel killer and they never promised it to excel across all games/configurations. What they did promise was Excavator + 40%, and they underpromised and over-delivered. They have a new architecture to build on for the next few years, and they'll bring some real competition back into the CPU market.

I am finding the number of butthurt gamer weenies crying that they pre-orderd hardware based on promises AMD made (that they never did) and screaming that it's a turd and AMD has failed again, quite amusing. Then again, they were probably still in nappies when the last round of major architecture bumps occurred and therefore missed all the release day teething troubles associated with those too.

I'll wait for the next couple of rounds of microcode updates before I order one, but it has just jumped up my priority list. It'll be a nice upgrade from the FX-8350 that has been driving my server since 2012 and might even replace the overclocked 3770K in my CAD machine.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Don't get me wrong. I'm an AMD fan from way back

I'm not.

I saved $50? on a mobo/cpu at the computer shop once in ~2002. The bloke conned me into buying the AMD athalon XP. I only wanted another machine to run menial disk maintenance tasks and possible a spare machine if the main rig broke down.

Found out the dos-based Norton Ghost disk cloner doesn't support non-intel in the fine print and sure enough after an hour or two munching on a drive, it hangs.

Never bothered to find out if it ran win98 as reliably(?) as on a Pentium 4 I got soon after in disgust.

The board found use as a firewall for about four years until the caps blew out and the thing wouldn't boot anymore. I learned my lesson.

 

Online Monkeh

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Don't get me wrong. I'm an AMD fan from way back

I'm not.

I saved $50? on a mobo/cpu at the computer shop once in ~2002. The bloke conned me into buying the AMD athalon XP. I only wanted another machine to run menial disk maintenance tasks and possible a spare machine if the main rig broke down.

Found out the dos-based Norton Ghost disk cloner doesn't support non-intel in the fine print and sure enough after an hour or two munching on a drive, it hangs.

Never bothered to find out if it ran win98 as reliably(?) as on a Pentium 4 I got soon after in disgust.

The board found use as a firewall for about four years until the caps blew out and the thing wouldn't boot anymore. I learned my lesson.

I don't really see how Norton's violent level of incompetence has anything to do with the CPU.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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I don't really see how Norton's violent level of incompetence has anything to do with the CPU.

Yeah. I know.

I blame both companies. I mean, really, what on earth could be in a dos based disk copy program that needs specific intel cpu ops?

And the marketing in those days suggested that the CPU was 'compatible'.
 

Offline blueskull

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For those who want to buy Ryzen: buy the 1700, not X, not 1800X.
From reviews seen recently, 1700 is capable of being overclocked to 1700X and 1800X's extreme frequency as well, while if not being OCed, it runs cooler.
It also runs cooler even when OCed to same frequency compared to 1700X, at least it runs at lower voltage to keep stable at same frequency.
It comes with free cooler, which is not supplied with -X models. Someone has already OCed a 1700 with free stock cooler to 4.0GHz, and I saw a lot of reports saying OC to 3.9GHz with stock air cooler is easy and universally achievable.
So, why bother spending almost twice the price on a 1800X (it's not $499, the price has gone higher)?
I suspect AMD is first releasing the best dice to gain market feedback. Once the initial campaign is done, they will release lower quality dice in stock, which doesn't guarantee OC capability.
So if you want some, go get them soon.
 

Online Monkeh

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I don't really see how Norton's violent level of incompetence has anything to do with the CPU.

Yeah. I know.

I blame both companies. I mean, really, what on earth could be in a dos based disk copy program that needs specific intel cpu ops?

And the marketing in those days suggested that the CPU was 'compatible'.

It's as compatible as any Intel CPUs.. code built for one of my Atoms will not run on a pre-Haswell CPU - it took more than four years for anything but the Atom series to implement MOVBE.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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I don't really see how Norton's violent level of incompetence has anything to do with the CPU.

Yeah. I know.

I blame both companies. I mean, really, what on earth could be in a dos based disk copy program that needs specific intel cpu ops?

And the marketing in those days suggested that the CPU was 'compatible'.

It's as compatible as any Intel CPUs.. code built for one of my Atoms will not run on a pre-Haswell CPU - it took more than four years for anything but the Atom series to implement MOVBE.

There's no excuse for putting in code for a specific, exotic part without taking advantage of the very easy defines in C to provide a portable alternative. What fraction of a percent of code needs the specific op codes? It just seems lazy to me.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 05:02:54 am by Ed.Kloonk »
 

Offline Hensingler

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In the end, if Ryzen is as great as AMD says it will be a Win-Win for everyone.

Actually it will be a Win 10 for everyone which is definitely not a win, that or linux.

Shame, supporting Win 7 would have been a big advantage over the latest Intel parts.
 

Offline blueskull

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In the end, if Ryzen is as great as AMD says it will be a Win-Win for everyone.

Actually it will be a Win 10 for everyone which is definitely not a win, that or linux.

Shame, supporting Win 7 would have been a big advantage over the latest Intel parts.

MS buys AMD SoCs in hundreds of thousands of pieces for use in their gaming console. Shouldn't AMD accept whatever MS's requirements? Perhaps that includes to block Win7.
 

Offline BradC

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Shame, supporting Win 7 would have been a big advantage over the latest Intel parts.

AMDs Ryzen Windows driver support bundle states Win7/10, so it might be worth looking a bit closer at that before discounting it completely.
Code: [Select]
? ? ? ?Description:

???Supports Windows 10/7 (?64-bit)
 

Offline BravoV

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Guess its time to upgrade, what kind of heatsink mounting does it use ?

Will old AMD's heatsink work ? I'm talking high end OC air heatsink, had few of them like thermalright, noctua and prolimatech.

Offline blueskull

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Guess its time to upgrade, what kind of heatsink mounting does it use ?

Will old AMD's heatsink work ? I'm talking high end OC air heatsink, had few of them like thermalright, noctua and prolimatech.

Notcua has a new AM4 model that looks like just another Noctua with a special mounting bracket.
If you can buy the bracket along, you are likely to use your old Noctua.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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When video encoding... stand by with a can of cold spray...   :box:

 ;)
 

Offline Terrius

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In the end, if Ryzen is as great as AMD says it will be a Win-Win for everyone.

Actually it will be a Win 10 for everyone which is definitely not a win, that or linux.

Shame, supporting Win 7 would have been a big advantage over the latest Intel parts.

I run windows 10 with no issues. Though I run Win10 pro with a bunch of the store junk and bloat permanently disabled through powershell.  While I do find their privacy settings and policies for win10 very shady, it's not really all the much worse than IOS or Android. Welcome to the era of IoT and Personal Data mining, big brother is always watching.

I upgraded to Win10 for the performance boosts over Win7, but I worked in a Retail PC/PC part store, so I understand how and why some people are unwilling to make the change and that is perfectly fine.


It does appear that AMD is supporting win7 64-bit though according to their drivers page.
http://support.amd.com/en-us/download  Scroll to the bottom and look on the right.
Quote
AMD Socket AM4/AMD Ryzen™ Processor Software Drivers
Windows 10/7 (64-bit)

Offline BradC

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Guess its time to upgrade, what kind of heatsink mounting does it use ?

It's looking like old heatsinks with the clip on bracket are compatible, but heatsinks with the screw on bracket certainly require new hardware. I've read Noctua are providing retrofit mount kits for "free" (where free depends on how you can source them).
No serious confirmation on the clips yet, I just based that on a quick comparison of measurements and looking at some of the AM3/AM4 compatible heatsinks that use the clip and don't seem to be providing additional hardware.
 

Online wraper

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Don't get me wrong. I'm an AMD fan from way back

I'm not.

I saved $50? on a mobo/cpu at the computer shop once in ~2002. The bloke conned me into buying the AMD athalon XP. I only wanted another machine to run menial disk maintenance tasks and possible a spare machine if the main rig broke down.

Found out the dos-based Norton Ghost disk cloner doesn't support non-intel in the fine print and sure enough after an hour or two munching on a drive, it hangs.

Never bothered to find out if it ran win98 as reliably(?) as on a Pentium 4 I got soon after in disgust.

The board found use as a firewall for about four years until the caps blew out and the thing wouldn't boot anymore. I learned my lesson.

I don't really see how Norton's violent level of incompetence has anything to do with the CPU.
Nor blowing caps as it was widespread issue in the industry at the time. Heck even Dell motherboards (for intel BTW) with japanese nichicon HM/HN caps failed after a year of work.
 

Offline BravoV

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Guess its time to upgrade, what kind of heatsink mounting does it use ?
Notcua has a new AM4 model that looks like just another Noctua with a special mounting bracket.
If you can buy the bracket along, you are likely to use your old Noctua.
It's looking like old heatsinks with the clip on bracket are compatible, but heatsinks with the screw on bracket certainly require new hardware. I've read Noctua are providing retrofit mount kits for "free" (where free depends on how you can source them).
No serious confirmation on the clips yet, I just based that on a quick comparison of measurements and looking at some of the AM3/AM4 compatible heatsinks that use the clip and don't seem to be providing additional hardware.

Ok, confirmed, no need for new AM4 bracket, old AM3 bracket works !  :-+

Source -> http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php/780364-My-time-with-Ryzen

Offline CJay

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2. Pins on AMD CPUS are  rather stiff and not easy to bend, and if few are bent, very easy to straighten. On intel motherboard, you look on it funny, and pins are already bent. Very hard to straighten them if you don't have a microscope, sharp tweezers and straight hands.
Never bent pins on a socket but I've accidentally bent a few cpu pins so I can't vouch for how difficult a socket is to fix (it looks like it'd be a sod of a job) but CPU pins are not stiff enough to survive a drop from a few inches without bending and I've seen plenty snapped off by people who tried to straighten them, the more stiff the pin is, the more likely it is to snap when you try and straighten it.

They are however, as you say, much simpler to straighten than a socket if they're not bent too far and you take care when straightening them.

3. If CPU pins are bent, you cannot insert it into the socket, nothing bad happens.

Not true, I've replaced several CPUs and motherboards in desktops and servers because people have bent CPU pins and managed to burn up a board and or CPU, one particularly memorable instance was on a HP DL580 system on which you could see the power traces to the affected CPU  because they'd cooked so much it'd caused the fibreglass to burn and bubble. You don't have to get the pins into the socket, all you need to do is bend them enough that they short to an adjacent pin.
 

Online wraper

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Ok, confirmed, no need for new AM4 bracket, old AM3 bracket works !  :-+

Source -> http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php/780364-My-time-with-Ryzen
Only if you buy motherboard with which has AM3 style holes in addition to AM4 holes. Or use spring bracket as stock coolers do.
 

Offline David Hess

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Never bent pins on a socket but I've accidentally bent a few cpu pins so I can't vouch for how difficult a socket is to fix (it looks like it'd be a sod of a job) but CPU pins are not stiff enough to survive a drop from a few inches without bending and I've seen plenty snapped off by people who tried to straighten them, the more stiff the pin is, the more likely it is to snap when you try and straighten it.

They are however, as you say, much simpler to straighten than a socket if they're not bent too far and you take care when straightening them.

The problem I have seen with the Intel LGA sockets involves coplanarity and lack of compliance.  If the motherboard becomes warped which is easy to do if the CPU heat sink is mounted incorrectly, then it is easy for some of the socket pins to not make good contact resulting in improper operation at best or a burned socket and possibly CPU at worst.
 

Offline Hensingler

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I run windows 10 with no issues.

Funny how people claim to run Win 10 without issues then explain they needed the pro/enterprise version and how and what they disabled and turned off and it is still a privacy leak and of course no one knows what the next update which most people can't refuse will bring.

There is a reason why almost twice as many people are still running Win 7 compared with Win 10 despite Win 10 being free and rammed down their throats by Microsoft. Sadly if enough sheeple accept the polished turds Microsoft produce that is what all of us are going to get, but, hey I'm glad you have no issues, apart from the ones you had, and have, and that updates will bring.

On Ryzen Win 7 support opinion is divided. AMD said they would and then said they wouldn't and yes some Ryzen hardware seems to list Win7 drivers.
 

Offline MarkS

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Funny how people claim to run Win 10 without issues then explain they needed the pro/enterprise version and how and what they disabled and turned off and it is still a privacy leak and of course no one knows what the next update which most people can't refuse will bring.

Agreed, but I think most people are referring to it being stable. I'm running the home version of Windows 10 without stability issues, but I have had to disable and block far too much. It's a potential security nightmare.
 

Offline Corporate666

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Finally something to possibly kick intels butt again!
Perhaps now Intel will pick up the pace... My 6yr old 2600k is still doing fairly ok compared to the latest 7700k, and thats a shame imo...

Of course AMD still needs to prove itself with the new Ryzen CPU's. Im very suspicious about them not sharing too much single core performance figures yet... Hopefully this wont be just as big of a problem as with their previous architecture. I would not pre-order for this reason alone.

That's THE BIGGEST advantage to Ryzen.  I remember many years ago when I was a working stiff and AMD came out with (I think it was) the Athlon (or was it the Phenom?  it was whatever one made them actually competitive with Intel).  I bought a lot of stock in AMD and made a killing. 

Fast forward to this week... I just bought a new laptop that uses a Core i7 7700HQ processor to replace my Core i7 3610QM processor laptop - that I bought in 2012.  And the new processor is only about 15% faster.  That is absolutely crazy... almost 5 years later and it's only a hair faster.  Back in the day, a 5 year old computer would be virtually unusable.  I guess it's good from a consumer standpoint that the rate of change has slowed, but the other thing that bothers me is I paid more for this laptop than the one from years ago, and the specs aren't really any better (memory, hard drive, screen size, resolution, battery life). 

In other words, the rate at which computers have been getting faster has ground to a halt.  But also, the rate at which the same specification parts have been getting cheaper has also ground to a halt.  The only exception is graphics cards. 

Ryzen will hopefully change that - light a fire under Intel's ass.  They have been abusing the consumer by soaking them and gouging them for YEARS. 
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline innkeeper

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On the surface it would seem we have hit a cpu core performance wall

Personally I still run 4 i7-920's overclocked which are circa 2008/9 because i've seen no need to upgrade as there has been no significant performance increases at the price level at around 199 retail at the time.
(note these can overlcock to like 4.2ghz+ pretty easily, but i run them at a conservative 3.8-4.0ghz 24/7 for the last 8 years) These were known for there overclocking, but still at a modest overclock, there jsut 25% slower then the i7-7700hq, and on par with the i7-980 circa 2009 .. where it has the advantage is a TDP of 45W vs 130W+ for similar performance cpus made 8 years ago.

So i agree, performance wise on the consumer level, there has not been much advancement at the per core performance level.
Where there has been advancement is number of cores per die and TDP.

On the consumer side though, graphic performance has been sticking to mores law in its growth, and along with it the floating point processing abilities that can be offloaded to a gpu (i draw a parellel to that  the old math coprocessors). SSD's have givin a huge performance boost to disk io, and memory continues to get faster as we go from ddr-ddr2-ddr3-ddr4-ddr5

I think this is due mostly economic reasons frankly and where the ROI is for development of new technologies. The money for intel is selling cpu's for visualized environments and in cloud architectures where a single cpu goes for 3,000 dollars.  What comes out of that is larger number of cores on a single chip, not necessarily driving higher performance per core, but, lower TDP per core for the most cost effective power consumption.

This fits and overall shift even at the consumer level as applications get more and more efficient at using multiple cores it becomes more important to ahve more cores then the performance per core.

I am a big AMD fan but have not used them in a long time ...  sadly it has taken AMD a long time to catch up to intel in recent history.  AMD used to rule the virtualization space, and was a price leader int he home computing space in the early 2000's intel recognized this and concentrated on architectures to compete and dominate the virtualization space and quicly surpassed amd

I've noticed that intel has reacted to the release of the Ryzen by immediately lowering the cost of the competing cpu's to lower then amd's retail costs. this is likely more of a loss leader to not allow amd to get a foothold again. The only way we will see the consumer prices stay low is if amd succeeds in this generation of cpus at retail. otherwise intel remains the 1000 lb gorilla in the room.

So sadly the "cheaper" part is no longer true.

I do wonder of amd has any server grade cpus in line for launch. that would be a game changer.

Hobbyist and a retired engineer and possibly a test equipment addict, though, searching for the equipment to test for that.
 


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