Author Topic: America has a secret weapon  (Read 7649 times)

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Offline aargee

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America has a secret weapon
« on: February 04, 2017, 06:05:52 am »
Not sure if this has been posted before:



From 2011; if this is true, it seems it may be more than relevant now.
Not easy, not hard, just need to be incentivised.
 

Offline MrOmnos

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2017, 06:28:25 am »
I don't really know about other countries but non of the top graduates from my college are here in my country. They are all in US.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2017, 05:20:57 pm »
The US should be importing as many STEM graduates as it can get!  I would prefer to see Permanent Resident versus H1B but, in the end, we should try to attract as many brilliant people as we can.

But the problem with the H1B visa is that it is extended too far down.  I worked with a Canadian fellow who was here on an H1B.  His job was to set up servers and build/administer the networking for a small business segment that was renting space from our plant.  There was nothing unique about his skills.  There must be thousands of native born Americans who can do that job.  The only thing the H1B does at this level is push wages down.  So, at a minimum, limit the H1B to graduates at or above MS<whatever>.

The other problem with foreign born students attending our educational institutions is that they are taking up space that should belong to the offspring of a taxpayer.  The people that actually OWN the public institutions (like University of California and Cal State University).  Sure, they pay more in tuition and board but that's not the point.  The colleges and universities belong to the taxpayers, not the Regents.
                                                                 
 

Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2017, 09:04:15 pm »
The other problem with foreign born students attending our educational institutions is that they are taking up space that should belong to the offspring of a taxpayer.  The people that actually OWN the public institutions (like University of California and Cal State University).  Sure, they pay more in tuition and board but that's not the point.  The colleges and universities belong to the taxpayers, not the Regents.
                                                                 

Them's fight'n words to Democrats, rstofer! :box:  For what it's worth, I agree 100% with you.  I know America is the land of opportunity, but we really need to take care of our own first and then see what we can do for everyone else.
I am of the age that my brain no longer says "maybe I shouldn't say that" but "what the heck, let's see what happens"
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2017, 02:42:59 am »
The US has benefited greatly over the years by getting the "best" of what the world has to offer.  From before nationhood until the late 1800s there were economic and physical barriers that meant that those who arrived here alive were "tops" by some metric.  Whether arriving as grant holders from royalty or surviving the horrors of a voyage in the hold of a slave ship they were superior examples of the human race.  Since then the barriers have been more legal than physical, but the result has been the same.

The great weapon of the US has been that if you made it here, and threw in your lot with us, you were one of us.  (True as a generalization, with obvious slip ups and late deliveries on the promise.). 

It is my fervent hope that this process continues, with some form of barriers to entry so we are not swamped and so that those who make it are in some sense superior, followed with open armed welcome of those who get here.
 

Offline Len

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2017, 02:51:43 am »
It is my fervent hope that this process continues, with some form of barriers to entry so we are not swamped and so that those who make it are in some sense superior, followed with open armed welcome of those who get here.

From where I sit, it looks like your arms are firmly crossed. I used to work in the U.S. but these days you couldn't hire me back for a million dollars.
 
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Offline Back2Volts

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2017, 04:19:21 am »
The H1B program has been used (read abused) as a source for cheap labor.   

Last year, or 2015, Disney disbanded the whole IT department, laying off all the skilled people.   They immediately turned the department over to H1Bs via a resources company.           

The only way to fix the H1B program is by setting wages over what an American would expect to be paid, but we all know that will never happen.   

The only technical jobs that are "safe" are the ones that require US security clearance.   
 

Offline switchedmodepsu

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2017, 05:08:06 am »
Oreos? White Castle?  ;D
 

Offline Co6aka

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2017, 05:54:05 am »
Co6aka says, "BARK! and you have no idea how humans will respond."
 

Offline bson

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2017, 06:43:09 am »
But the problem with the H1B visa is that it is extended too far down.
Agreed.  The overwhelming majority of H1B visa holders I've worked with have been extremely junior and of mundane ability.  No different from your typical American sent to college for the same time period.  It's the usual "can't make someone a painter by sending them to art school", and like the vast majority of people they don't "have it" but are looking for a well-paying career.  (Then in a few years realize being an engineer without a deep subject interest is a very difficult career, so they escape into management.)  However, I've also had the privilege to work with a number of highly notable exceptions.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2017, 06:47:28 am »
The H1B program has been used (read abused) as a source for cheap labor.   

Last year, or 2015, Disney disbanded the whole IT department, laying off all the skilled people.   They immediately turned the department over to H1Bs via a resources company.           

The only way to fix the H1B program is by setting wages over what an American would expect to be paid, but we all know that will never happen.   

The only technical jobs that are "safe" are the ones that require US security clearance.

Which USCIS is proposing a new proposal to limit "H1B dependent companies". Under the new proposal, H1B dependent employers (which has majority of its employees under H1B) must show USCIS that their workers can make more than twice average US salary (65k*2) in order to qualify.

For small companies or American-employees-dominated companies, this doesn't apply. This only applies to resource companies like Tata and resource company dependent companies like Facebook.
 

Offline Rick Law

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2017, 08:29:59 am »
The US should be importing as many STEM graduates as it can get!  I would prefer to see Permanent Resident versus H1B but, in the end, we should try to attract as many brilliant people as we can.

But the problem with the H1B visa is that it is extended too far down.  I worked with a Canadian fellow who was here on an H1B.  His job was to set up servers and build/administer the networking for a small business segment that was renting space from our plant.  There was nothing unique about his skills.  There must be thousands of native born Americans who can do that job.  The only thing the H1B does at this level is push wages down.  So, at a minimum, limit the H1B to graduates at or above MS<whatever>.

The other problem with foreign born students attending our educational institutions is that they are taking up space that should belong to the offspring of a taxpayer.  The people that actually OWN the public institutions (like University of California and Cal State University).  Sure, they pay more in tuition and board but that's not the point.  The colleges and universities belong to the taxpayers, not the Regents.
                                                                 

H1 used to require labor certification certifying that the skill is indeed rare and needed.  Employers used to have to advertise the job for a specific length of time and had interviewed at least three US legal candidates.  This requirement appears to have gone away with H1B.

re: So, at a minimum, limit the H1B to graduates at or above MS<whatever>.

That is too easily defeated.  Un-accredited institutions can be found all over the place.

I have no objection to hard-science and engineering Phd/MS/MA students staying to work or coming here to work.  Anyone educated to a level above the USA average is by definition on with an above average education.  That will pull us up.

Phd/MS/MA in non-STEM would be lumped in with BS/BA (STEM) or below.

With jobs that requires below MS/MA (STEM) or non-STEM jobs filled by foreign national, I like to see an employee tax paid by the employer.  100% looks good.  If they go non-USA, the tax paid means it would cost double the cost of hiring domestically.  That would discourage the practice.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2017, 02:59:57 pm »
It is my fervent hope that this process continues, with some form of barriers to entry so we are not swamped and so that those who make it are in some sense superior, followed with open armed welcome of those who get here.

From where I sit, it looks like your arms are firmly crossed. I used to work in the U.S. but these days you couldn't hire me back for a million dollars.

Apparently that barrier was high enough to keep you out.  I don't know if you fully threw in, or just wanted to work here for a while before going back home, retaining your Canadian citizenship. 

I know several Canadians who have emigrated here (some are physicians escaping the excellent Canadian health care system, though most are weather refugees) who seem quite satisfied.  During my career I worked with Jewish folks of several nationalities who escaped Germany before WWII, and Germans, Italians and others who escaped the chaos in Europe following WWII.  Poles who escaped the 1956 conquest.  Vietnamese who escaped the fall of South Vietnam.  I've had neighbors who didn't trust the return of Hong Kong to Chinese rule.  And many other nationalities.  They all fit in just fine, and seemed happy with their decision.  Their children are American in outlook.

In spite of all the troubles we have we are still a pretty welcoming place.  Sorry it didn't work out for you.

 

Offline MrOmnos

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2017, 05:05:41 pm »
   

The only technical jobs that are "safe" are the ones that require US security clearance.

From what I have heard if you are smart, security clearance isn't that big of a problem either.
 

Offline SkyMaster

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2017, 06:35:48 pm »

I know several Canadians who have emigrated here (some are physicians escaping the excellent Canadian health care system, though most are weather refugees) who seem quite satisfied. 

This is off topic, but the Canadian health care system is VERY good to the physicians. The Canadians physicians who decide to move to United States do so in order to make even more money.

 :)
 

Offline Back2Volts

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2017, 06:50:28 pm »
   

The only technical jobs that are "safe" are the ones that require US security clearance.

From what I have heard if you are smart, security clearance isn't that big of a problem either.

...for US citizens
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2017, 07:41:38 pm »
From what I have heard if you are smart, security clearance isn't that big of a problem either.

...for US citizens

There is a way for a foreign citizen to work in US classified fields. Actually, there is a green card type for that call EB2 NIW (national interest waiver), which I will be applying after graduation. 5 years after green card is granted, naturalization can occur after oath and passing a test in US history.
I don't want to reveal much, but I do write proposals to and having meetings with a big US military contractor, and their head of technology development dept (local office) is herself an Indian immigrant.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2017, 07:50:50 pm »
Without H-1B and J-1 visas for doctors there would be a severe physician shortage in many parts of the country - much worse than there already is.

 

I know several Canadians who have emigrated here (some are physicians escaping the excellent Canadian health care system, though most are weather refugees) who seem quite satisfied. 

This is off topic, but the Canadian health care system is VERY good to the physicians. The Canadians physicians who decide to move to United States do so in order to make even more money.

 :)

Yes, in fact I know 3 different US doctors who moved to Canada to work there.   Money is not the only motivator for some.
 

Offline raspberrypi

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2017, 08:53:29 pm »
All great empires fall. Even Rome fell. When your number one there is nowhere to go but down. Lady's and Gentilemen please meet Donald Trump. We are fucked. Dave can I crash in your basement for four or eight years?
I'm legally blind so sometimes I ask obvious questions, but its because I can't see well.
 

Offline John_ITIC

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2017, 01:17:30 am »
The only way to fix the H1B program is by setting wages over what an American would expect to be paid, but we all know that will never happen.   

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Online nctnico

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2017, 01:40:14 am »
All great empires fall. Even Rome fell. When your number one there is nowhere to go but down. Lady's and Gentilemen please meet Donald Trump. We are fucked.
And the rest is laughing their asses off every day. My favourite news site has a live blog with whatever nonsense Trump tweets.

Anyway, to me it seems more government regulation is the only way to put a halt to excessive immigration. OTOH it seems all those immigrants have jobs and unemployment numbers in the US are quite low (below 5%). A well functioning economy needs an unemployment rate of a few percent so aiming for zero isn't realistic and below 5% is almost ideal.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 01:42:40 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2017, 02:24:18 am »
OTOH it seems all those immigrants have jobs and unemployment numbers in the US are quite low (below 5%). A well functioning economy needs an unemployment rate of a few percent so aiming for zero isn't realistic and below 5% is almost ideal.

The headline U-3 unemployment rate is misleading as it excludes those who have given up looking for a job, includes part time jobs, etc.

Thr U-6 rate or the Labor Force Participation Rate are better indicators of the (un)health of the labor market in the US.

Trump is a symptom. He is not the disease.


 

Offline rrinker

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2017, 02:33:15 am »
 Notice that many news outlets, when discussing the January unemployment, now are posting the U6 number, In the past it was only U3. Plus they are sure making an attempt to mislead the public by showing how much bigger the number is without making it clear that the two are not directly comparable.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2017, 11:30:08 am »
OTOH it seems all those immigrants have jobs and unemployment numbers in the US are quite low (below 5%). A well functioning economy needs an unemployment rate of a few percent so aiming for zero isn't realistic and below 5% is almost ideal.
The headline U-3 unemployment rate is misleading as it excludes those who have given up looking for a job, includes part time jobs, etc.
People who are not looking for a job don't need a job so there is no need to include them in an unemployment number. Anyway it doesn't really matter because both graphs show that unemployment rates are very near the numbers from (close) before 2008. Also the way the graphs are formatted makes the difference look huge
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Rick Law

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2017, 09:16:28 pm »
OTOH it seems all those immigrants have jobs and unemployment numbers in the US are quite low (below 5%). A well functioning economy needs an unemployment rate of a few percent so aiming for zero isn't realistic and below 5% is almost ideal.
The headline U-3 unemployment rate is misleading as it excludes those who have given up looking for a job, includes part time jobs, etc.
People who are not looking for a job don't need a job so there is no need to include them in an unemployment number. Anyway it doesn't really matter because both graphs show that unemployment rates are very near the numbers from (close) before 2008. Also the way the graphs are formatted makes the difference look huge

The definition of "not looking for a job" is not what you think it means.  In the USA, the Federal Government get the numbers submitted by the States and policies varies a bit across States.

In New Jersey (a few years back) you have to show evidence of looking for work.  If you cannot find an opening to apply to, (a) you won't send them (the hiring company) your resume to a non-existing opening, (b) they wont call you in to fill an application to a non-existing opening, and (c) you wont have an interview for a non-existing opening.  Missing the three will put you into the "no longer looking" category.

A friend of mine kept sending his resume (to a company without an opening) in anyway.  He did that to keep receiving the unemployment insurance benefit.  It got to a point when he got a nasty-gram back ("don't bother us, we an't hiring").

Shortly there after, our State's unemployment office actually had a layoff (of contract employees and temps).  Then it was 6 months - after the standard unemployment insurance ran out in 6 months... since you have not worked for so long, you are no longer in the work force, so you don't count as unemployed.

No resume send, didn't fill out a job application, didn't go to a job interview for N weeks, you are "now out of the work force" and not counted.  If you have a master degree in Chemical Engineering, and all you can find is (say for example) selling coffee at commuter train station 1 hour a day during morning rush hour, you are now count as employed...

That was a system that could work if jobs are plentiful and there is always a place to interview at.  That system doesn't work when no one is hiring.  Mathematically, you have just one job is the entire USA and you can have U3 with 0.00% unemployment - after waiting for everyone to become long-term unemployed and they wont show up in the U3.  That is why in the last 8 years, the U3 unemployment number keep looking better and better ,while the long-term unemployed keep increasing.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2017, 10:47:44 pm »
Still: it doesn't really matter because both graphs show that unemployment rates are very near the numbers from (close) before 2008. The input isn't as skewed as you are suggesting.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: America has a secret weapon
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2017, 11:25:47 pm »
Still: it doesn't really matter because both graphs show that unemployment rates are very near the numbers from (close) before 2008. The input isn't as skewed as you are suggesting.

No, the U-6 is about back to where it was in the depths of the prior recession (2003) and the labor force participation rate is back to where it was in the late 1970's when the introduction of large numbers of working women into the workforce was just getting started.

Regardless of graphs or statistics, the reality on the ground in much of the USA is that the job market for all but a few select industries (health care, high tech, finance and a few others) is terrible.  The  market for working class middle income jobs is downright awful. People are working low paying part time jobs in the retail and service industries (think Walmart, Starbucks, bartenders, waitresses, fast food, etc) to make ends meet. Or they have given up looking for work altogether - sometimes because they will be forced to give up the meager government benefits they do get if they take a minimum wage job.     Blame it on automation, offshoring of manufacturing jobs, the financialization of the economy, an empire in decline, or what have you (it's surely a combo of all those things) but it is a real phenomenon. The result is a lot of unhappy, even angry people -some who will scapegoat immigrants or blame those on the "other side" of the stale left/right political divide (which is what the politicians and their corporate masters want).   The rise of populist candidates - Sanders and Trump - as well as some anti-immigrant sentiment is the result.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 11:27:20 pm by mtdoc »
 


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