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An observation on homework problems

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tggzzz:

--- Quote from: coppice on August 17, 2020, 09:30:01 pm ---
--- Quote from: b_force on August 17, 2020, 09:23:10 pm ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on August 17, 2020, 09:15:23 pm ---
--- Quote from: b_force on August 17, 2020, 08:13:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: ucanel on August 17, 2020, 07:39:31 pm ---
at school exams i memorised 10 pages of programs that likely to be asked,
i passed the exams knowing nothing about programming.


--- End quote ---
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a perfect way to get ACTUALLY a degree without knowing anything.

No offence towards you obviously, happy you found something you like  :-+

--- End quote ---

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why some institutions and degrees are more valued than others.

--- End quote ---
Maybe in the UK, but I have never seen people bothering about it.
As long as you have a Master of Bachelor of Engineering/Science people believe and assume you have some knowledge.

--- End quote ---
People have always wanted to know where you got your degree in some countries, like the US. There was a time when people in the UK didn't focus much on where you got your degree. They were mostly interested in whether you got a 1st, upper 2nd, etc. Now people do want to know where you studied in the UK. Anyone that didn't attend a Russell Group university (a group of about 40 old and trusted universities) is treated with great skepticism.

--- End quote ---

Yes, but the degree (ho ho) of skepticism should depend on the job.

You need to match the candidate to the job; there's no point in employing a technician as an engineer or vice versa. Ditto practical skills / theory skills.

tggzzz:

--- Quote from: b_force on August 17, 2020, 09:38:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on August 17, 2020, 09:30:01 pm ---People have always wanted to know where you got your degree in some countries, like the US. There was a time when people in the UK didn't focus much on where you got your degree. They were mostly interested in whether you got a 1st, upper 2nd, etc. Now people do want to know where you studied in the UK. Anyone that didn't attend a Russell Group university (a group of about 40 old and trusted universities) is treated with great skepticism.

--- End quote ---
Interesting, never came across these experiences, nor other people I know

Personally when I look for candidates I don't even bother looking for a degree anymore.
I just haven't seen any correlation between having a degree vs knowledge, work mentality and skills.
Well obviously you're also not going to just take a random person, but what I am trying to say (also with my earlier posts), is that are other ways to gain knowledge
For some people it's even more just a prestige thing than anything else.

--- End quote ---

Depends on the job.

For most of the places I've worked, having a solid grasp of the theory has been absolutely essential. That means a Russell group degree is almost necessary, and a non-Russell group degree is a negative. It does not mean that a Russell group degree is sufficient.

A degree is an indicator, no more. You judge the candidate on what you discover in the interview.

First you let them tell you what they have achieved in the past, and ask questions to verify their statements. Then you ask questions designed to show you how they think and approach problems that will be relevant to the job.

fourfathom:

--- Quote from: tggzzz on August 17, 2020, 09:14:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: ucanel on August 17, 2020, 07:39:31 pm ---I am an EE.
First year of the collage at the C lessons
i think that the first thing that i will fail at my education life will be the programming,
indeed that happened, i failed,
at the summer school exams i memorised 10 pages of programs that likely to be asked,
i passed the exams knowing nothing about programming.

Now i am an embedded programmer,
i love programming, i love problem solving.

--- End quote ---

That is possible for a technician, not an engineer.

You should read "Profession" by Isaac Asimov, since it is directly relevant to that. I've previously posted a link to it.

--- End quote ---

I read that Asimov story, and found it interesting that (in the story) it was claimed that only one person in 100,000 were suited to be the inventors, scientists, etc.  I believe that in our world the number is much more generous than that.

And I also think it is possible to self-educate and become an engineer.  Life story:

I dropped out of college after a couple of years and never got a degree of any sort.  I had become interested in electronics before the age of ten, and (when I wasn't trying to be a bass guitar rock star) spent tens of thousands of hours reading books, magazines, and experimenting.  I did take EE Technology courses in my early twenties, but never bothered to finish up and get my degree because I became bored -- I already knew that stuff.  I worked as a technician for a few years and then advanced into an engineering role.  At this point I already had better design chops than many of the "real" engineers I was working with.  Yes, I had blind spots, but I was a good team player and we all worked to complement other's strengths.

Time marches on, and I progress through a few companies -- established and start-ups -- never stopping my self-education.  I took a couple of semesters of Calculus because I wanted to.  I became an engineering manager (small teams), and director of engineering (the last start-up, a fiber-optics networking equipment manufacturer), while still keeping my design and architecture responsibilities.  Our company was acquired in 1999 and I retired in 2001 with the title "Distinguished Engineer" and well over a dozen patents to my name.  Now I'm back to playing with electronics in my garage.

So am I an "Engineer"?  I'm certainly not a scientist, mathematician, or physicist, but my employers and colleagues seem to think that I am a pretty good engineer.  I found myself unable to maintain interest in an academic setting, but found my calling and passion in the hands-on world and became a jack-of-many-trades, master of some.

So I think it's entirely possible to become an effective engineer without traditional formal training.  I wouldn't recommend this path for everyone, but I think there is more than one way to reach your goals.

coppice:

--- Quote from: tggzzz on August 17, 2020, 09:58:50 pm ---
--- Quote from: b_force on August 17, 2020, 09:38:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on August 17, 2020, 09:30:01 pm ---People have always wanted to know where you got your degree in some countries, like the US. There was a time when people in the UK didn't focus much on where you got your degree. They were mostly interested in whether you got a 1st, upper 2nd, etc. Now people do want to know where you studied in the UK. Anyone that didn't attend a Russell Group university (a group of about 40 old and trusted universities) is treated with great skepticism.

--- End quote ---
Interesting, never came across these experiences, nor other people I know

Personally when I look for candidates I don't even bother looking for a degree anymore.
I just haven't seen any correlation between having a degree vs knowledge, work mentality and skills.
Well obviously you're also not going to just take a random person, but what I am trying to say (also with my earlier posts), is that are other ways to gain knowledge
For some people it's even more just a prestige thing than anything else.

--- End quote ---

Depends on the job.

For most of the places I've worked, having a solid grasp of the theory has been absolutely essential. That means a Russell group degree is almost necessary, and a non-Russell group degree is a negative. It does not mean that a Russell group degree is sufficient.

A degree is an indicator, no more. You judge the candidate on what you discover in the interview.

First you let them tell you what they have achieved in the past, and ask questions to verify their statements. Then you ask questions designed to show you how they think and approach problems that will be relevant to the job.

--- End quote ---
Degrees are only important when recruiting a fresh graduate, or someone with little experience. The importance of formal education gradually gives way to what they can convince you they have achieved in the real world.

The UK used to have more nuanced qualifications for people of differing ability, suitable for different kinds of jobs. Now so many things are called a degree, you have to look behind that term to see what actual study occurred.

tggzzz:

--- Quote from: fourfathom on August 17, 2020, 10:19:03 pm ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on August 17, 2020, 09:14:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: ucanel on August 17, 2020, 07:39:31 pm ---I am an EE.
First year of the collage at the C lessons
i think that the first thing that i will fail at my education life will be the programming,
indeed that happened, i failed,
at the summer school exams i memorised 10 pages of programs that likely to be asked,
i passed the exams knowing nothing about programming.

Now i am an embedded programmer,
i love programming, i love problem solving.

--- End quote ---

That is possible for a technician, not an engineer.

You should read "Profession" by Isaac Asimov, since it is directly relevant to that. I've previously posted a link to it.

--- End quote ---

I read that Asimov story, and found it interesting that (in the story) it was claimed that only one person in 100,000 were suited to be the inventors, scientists, etc.  I believe that in our world the number is much more generous than that.

And I also think it is possible to self-educate and become an engineer.  Life story:

I dropped out of college after a couple of years and never got a degree of any sort.  I had become interested in electronics before the age of ten, and (when I wasn't trying to be a bass guitar rock star) spent tens of thousands of hours reading books, magazines, and experimenting.  I did take EE Technology courses in my early twenties, but never bothered to finish up and get my degree because I became bored -- I already knew that stuff.  I worked as a technician for a few years and then advanced into an engineering role.  At this point I already had better design chops than many of the "real" engineers I was working with.  Yes, I had blind spots, but I was a good team player and we all worked to complement other's strengths.

Time marches on, and I progress through a few companies -- established and start-ups -- never stopping my self-education.  I took a couple of semesters of Calculus because I wanted to.  I became an engineering manager (small teams), and director of engineering (the last start-up, a fiber-optics networking equipment manufacturer), while still keeping my design and architecture responsibilities.  Our company was acquired in 1999 and I retired in 2001 with the title "Distinguished Engineer" and well over a dozen patents to my name.  Now I'm back to playing with electronics in my garage.

So am I an "Engineer"?  I'm certainly not a scientist, mathematician, or physicist, but my employers and colleagues seem to think that I am a pretty good engineer.  I found myself unable to maintain interest in an academic setting, but found my calling and passion in the hands-on world and became a jack-of-many-trades, master of some.

So I think it's entirely possible to become an effective engineer without traditional formal training.  I wouldn't recommend this path for everyone, but I think there is more than one way to reach your goals.

--- End quote ---

I wouldn't take too much notice about a precise number in a work of fiction!

It certainly is possible to become an effective engineer without formal training, but it takes a long time, is difficult and rare. I've known one individual like that; he had stunning theoretical and practical expertise.

Having said that, there are too many people that loudly make statements along the lines of "theory skills are useless, all that matters are practical skills", or "I knew a PhD that measured the impedance of the mains with an avometer, therefore...". Usually such people have no theoretical qualifications (and hence understanding), often because they failed at them.

The very important point to me is that engineers are not better than technicians any more than technicians are better than engineers. You need a range of skills, and no one person will have them all. That is true of personality traits as well, and getting a well-balanced team where one person's weakenesses are covered by another person's strengths is very important to success.

If you have all technicans and no engineers, then you may end up with something that fails for subtle reasons. Conversely, with all engineers you may end up with something that would work reliably if bits stopped falling off.

Analogy: when diagnosing a serious condition, I wouldn't use a nurse. Similarly when inserting a needle, I wouldn't want a doctor. Horses for courses.

I too chose to be a jack of all trades and master of none. I have seen many systems containing fundamental flaws which work unreliably. But if you want fast reliable soldering or a neat enclosure, don't come to me :)

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