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An observation on homework problems
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tggzzz:

--- Quote from: coppice on August 18, 2020, 01:07:05 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on August 17, 2020, 09:58:50 pm ---
--- Quote from: b_force on August 17, 2020, 09:38:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on August 17, 2020, 09:30:01 pm ---People have always wanted to know where you got your degree in some countries, like the US. There was a time when people in the UK didn't focus much on where you got your degree. They were mostly interested in whether you got a 1st, upper 2nd, etc. Now people do want to know where you studied in the UK. Anyone that didn't attend a Russell Group university (a group of about 40 old and trusted universities) is treated with great skepticism.

--- End quote ---
Interesting, never came across these experiences, nor other people I know

Personally when I look for candidates I don't even bother looking for a degree anymore.
I just haven't seen any correlation between having a degree vs knowledge, work mentality and skills.
Well obviously you're also not going to just take a random person, but what I am trying to say (also with my earlier posts), is that are other ways to gain knowledge
For some people it's even more just a prestige thing than anything else.

--- End quote ---

Depends on the job.

For most of the places I've worked, having a solid grasp of the theory has been absolutely essential. That means a Russell group degree is almost necessary, and a non-Russell group degree is a negative. It does not mean that a Russell group degree is sufficient.

A degree is an indicator, no more. You judge the candidate on what you discover in the interview.

First you let them tell you what they have achieved in the past, and ask questions to verify their statements. Then you ask questions designed to show you how they think and approach problems that will be relevant to the job.

--- End quote ---
Degrees are only important when recruiting a fresh graduate, or someone with little experience. The importance of formal education gradually gives way to what they can convince you they have achieved in the real world.

--- End quote ---

As time goes on the "quality" of the degree becomes less important, but it can still be used as an indicator of what they ought to be capable of. Not everybody uses their degree in their current job, but might be able to in their next job.

You give job candidates a chance to explain (and justify!) what they have achieved, and then probe what they might be able to do for you. That's both theory and practical skills, as appropriate.


--- Quote ---The UK used to have more nuanced qualifications for people of differing ability, suitable for different kinds of jobs. Now so many things are called a degree, you have to look behind that term to see what actual study occurred.

--- End quote ---

Yes. In spades :(

One size doesn't and shouldn't fit all.

I really hate that the polytechs rebranded themselves as unis. Polys clearly signalled that they were offering different paths and different skills for different people - and that was very important to both the student and the employer. I think the rebranding was principally a case of academic inferiority complex, which annoys me intensely.
coppice:

--- Quote from: tggzzz on August 18, 2020, 08:32:13 am ---As time goes on the "quality" of the degree becomes less important, but it can still be used as an indicator of what they ought to be capable of.

--- End quote ---
Sure. In the UK having gone to a prestige university will always say you are either very smart or your parents had the money to send you to public school. :)


--- Quote from: tggzzz on August 18, 2020, 08:32:13 am ---I really hate that the polytechs rebranded themselves as unis. Polys clearly signalled that they were offering different paths and different skills for different people - and that was very important to both the student and the employer. I think the rebranding was principally a case of academic inferiority complex, which annoys me intensely.

--- End quote ---
Go back to the 1980s. Industrially Britain was falling apart, and Japan was doing well. British politicians tended to think the answer was to be more like Japan. Japan put 18% of its young through university, while Britain put a much lower percentage through university. The politician's answer was more universities. This ignored 2 key issues here. The first is that Japan called most tertiary education "university", while Britain had polys,technical colleges and other things offering HNCs, HNDs and other non-degree tertiary qualifications. If you took the total percentage of British youngsters who went through some kind of tertiary education it wasn't far from Japan's figures. The other point is that anyone who hasn't grown up in some kind of intellectual bubble knows that due to talent or inclination most of the people around them at school were either not prepared or not inclined to go through a traditional degree course.
tggzzz:

--- Quote from: coppice on August 18, 2020, 10:43:07 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on August 18, 2020, 08:32:13 am ---As time goes on the "quality" of the degree becomes less important, but it can still be used as an indicator of what they ought to be capable of.

--- End quote ---
Sure. In the UK having gone to a prestige university will always say you are either very smart or your parents had the money to send you to public school. :)

--- End quote ---

The current covid/brexit news management deflection fiasco apart, I'll note that public school does not mean university material.

As Waugh put it in "Decline and Fall", "We class schools into four grades: leading school, first-rate school, good school and school." Guess where the hero went to teach!
coppice:

--- Quote from: tggzzz on August 18, 2020, 11:00:51 am ---
--- Quote from: coppice on August 18, 2020, 10:43:07 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on August 18, 2020, 08:32:13 am ---As time goes on the "quality" of the degree becomes less important, but it can still be used as an indicator of what they ought to be capable of.

--- End quote ---
Sure. In the UK having gone to a prestige university will always say you are either very smart or your parents had the money to send you to public school. :)

--- End quote ---

The current covid/brexit news management deflection fiasco apart, I'll note that public school does not mean university material.

As Waugh put it in "Decline and Fall", "We class schools into four grades: leading school, first-rate school, good school and school." Guess where the hero went to teach!

--- End quote ---
Well, duh, whoda thought? The figures are clearly different now, but when I went to university in the early 70s about half of university students came from the 5% of the population at public schools, and half came from the 95% at state schools. Those people from public schools were of mixed ability, but had been well trained to get through the exams needed for university. Any numbskull you met with a degree from Oxford or Cambridge had clearly been to an excellent public school. Now the school exams have been massively dumbed down, so it must be far easier for anyone from a public school to get a place in a good university.
tggzzz:

--- Quote from: coppice on August 18, 2020, 11:22:49 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on August 18, 2020, 11:00:51 am ---
--- Quote from: coppice on August 18, 2020, 10:43:07 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on August 18, 2020, 08:32:13 am ---As time goes on the "quality" of the degree becomes less important, but it can still be used as an indicator of what they ought to be capable of.

--- End quote ---
Sure. In the UK having gone to a prestige university will always say you are either very smart or your parents had the money to send you to public school. :)

--- End quote ---

The current covid/brexit news management deflection fiasco apart, I'll note that public school does not mean university material.

As Waugh put it in "Decline and Fall", "We class schools into four grades: leading school, first-rate school, good school and school." Guess where the hero went to teach!

--- End quote ---
Well, duh, whoda thought? The figures are clearly different now, but when I went to university in the early 70s about half of university students came from the 5% of the population at public schools, and half came from the 95% at state schools. Those people from public schools were of mixed ability, but had been well trained to get through the exams needed for university. Any numbskull you met with a degree from Oxford or Cambridge had clearly been to an excellent public school. Now the school exams have been massively dumbed down, so it must be far easier for anyone from a public school to get a place in a good university.

--- End quote ---

I don't know the actual percentages, but the 60s really broke down the barrier that pretty much excluded the working class from university.

I must be odd, because I chose to not accept a scholarship to a local public school, and go to the local Grammar School. Ditto Cambridge vs Southampton Uni.

The major difference between the 70s and now is that in the 70s ~8% went to university whereas nowdays I believe it is 45%. If we make the grossly simplifying assumption of mapping that onto IQ (etc) bell curves, then mean value of competence is very noticably lower. Hence, even if the proportions of grades remains the same, the standard necessary to get a grade must necessarily be lower.
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