Author Topic: And now the Boeing 777...  (Read 8708 times)

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Online coppercone2

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2021, 06:55:24 am »
how does it stay burning at 600mph? it must be either very flammable, very hot or pilot lighted by something

is the engine like still sustaining itself by oil dripping into the middle and igniting and the flame being pushed out to make it look like its on fire on the outside despite the outside not burning? i.e. combustion occurs in the same place as it does with the fuel but instead occurs with residual oils but the amount of fire is excessive so it gets pushed out, operating kinda like a reflux condenser, in terms of liquid being sucked into the middle then fire being pushed out, not in the sense of condensation?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 07:00:45 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline tom66

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2021, 07:17:27 am »
An explanation I heard was that hydraulic fluid or oil is present in that area.  The significant internal failure of the engine may have ruptured some pipes and the engine is consuming those fluids. 

However I don't know if the engines have independent hydraulic fluid supplies for the thrust reverser and any other actuators, because I don't recall the pilots reporting a hydraulics failure.
 

Offline drussell

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2021, 04:41:06 pm »


Also of note:

Quote
Hey Juan, really enjoy your reporting.  I'm a career engineer here at P&W in East Hartford.  Dialed in to a zoom call with out President (Chris Calio) today and he stated all Hollow Fan Blade segments have been recovered and are in our lab in East Hartford.  Just passing this along, thanks.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2021, 05:00:15 pm »
An explanation I heard was that hydraulic fluid or oil is present in that area.  The significant internal failure of the engine may have ruptured some pipes and the engine is consuming those fluids. 

However I don't know if the engines have independent hydraulic fluid supplies for the thrust reverser and any other actuators, because I don't recall the pilots reporting a hydraulics failure.

do they end up having thrust from the oil being leaked into them?
 

Offline ve7xen

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2021, 07:43:17 pm »
how does it stay burning at 600mph? it must be either very flammable, very hot or pilot lighted by something

is the engine like still sustaining itself by oil dripping into the middle and igniting and the flame being pushed out to make it look like its on fire on the outside despite the outside not burning? i.e. combustion occurs in the same place as it does with the fuel but instead occurs with residual oils but the amount of fire is excessive so it gets pushed out, operating kinda like a reflux condenser, in terms of liquid being sucked into the middle then fire being pushed out, not in the sense of condensation?

The aircraft isn't travelling at 600mph, nor is its indicated airspeed (which would represent how much the fire 'feels' the air) 600mph. They would've been at an IAS of about 280kts or 322mph. Ground speed would have been somewhat higher, maybe 320kts. They were fairly low in the climb, not at altitude in cruise.

Where you see the fire emanating from is the thrust reverser 'translating sleeve' with many vanes to redirect the air to the rear. The thrust reverser doors appear to be closed, so no significant airflow from the fan duct (or fuel or anything else from the engine core) can reach this area in this configuration. Since the purpose of these vanes is to direct air rearward, the pockets are 'out of the wind' so to speak, and yeah maybe there is an element of negative pressure helping to suck fuel from whatever the fuel source is. From the reports so far, it doesn't sound like there were any major fuel leaks and the fuel shutoffs worked as designed, so I'd guess this is either residual fuel from ruptured lines or hydraulic oil, possibly from the TR mechanism itself, but could be anything mounted on the outside of the engine. This will be a focus of the investigation for sure.

It's definitely not that you're seeing combustion in the core, the TR doors are closed, and even if they were open, you'd only see inside the fan duct, not the core. Any flame you might observe (extremely unlikely) inside the combustion chambers due to catastrophic damage would be much deeper inside the engine than is observed here which is clearly near the surface. If that were happening, you'd probably see it inside the fan duct as well from the front/rear.

Thrust from this would be negligible, it's clearly not a very significant amount of fire, and it's happening in 'free air'.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 07:45:13 pm by ve7xen »
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Online langwadt

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2021, 08:04:08 pm »
how does it stay burning at 600mph? it must be either very flammable, very hot or pilot lighted by something

is the engine like still sustaining itself by oil dripping into the middle and igniting and the flame being pushed out to make it look like its on fire on the outside despite the outside not burning? i.e. combustion occurs in the same place as it does with the fuel but instead occurs with residual oils but the amount of fire is excessive so it gets pushed out, operating kinda like a reflux condenser, in terms of liquid being sucked into the middle then fire being pushed out, not in the sense of condensation?

The aircraft isn't travelling at 600mph, nor is its indicated airspeed (which would represent how much the fire 'feels' the air) 600mph. They would've been at an IAS of about 280kts or 322mph. Ground speed would have been somewhat higher, maybe 320kts. They were fairly low in the climb, not at altitude in cruise.

Where you see the fire emanating from is the thrust reverser 'translating sleeve' with many vanes to redirect the air to the rear. The thrust reverser doors appear to be closed, so no significant airflow from the fan duct (or fuel or anything else from the engine core) can reach this area in this configuration. Since the purpose of these vanes is to direct air rearward, the pockets are 'out of the wind' so to speak, and yeah maybe there is an element of negative pressure helping to suck fuel from whatever the fuel source is. From the reports so far, it doesn't sound like there were any major fuel leaks and the fuel shutoffs worked as designed, so I'd guess this is either residual fuel from ruptured lines or hydraulic oil, possibly from the TR mechanism itself, but could be anything mounted on the outside of the engine. This will be a focus of the investigation for sure.

It's definitely not that you're seeing combustion in the core, the TR doors are closed, and even if they were open, you'd only see inside the fan duct, not the core. Any flame you might observe (extremely unlikely) inside the combustion chambers due to catastrophic damage would be much deeper inside the engine than is observed here which is clearly near the surface. If that were happening, you'd probably see it inside the fan duct as well from the front/rear.

Thrust from this would be negligible, it's clearly not a very significant amount of fire, and it's happening in 'free air'.

afaiu the thrust reverser part that is on fire is made of carbonfiber

 

Offline drussell

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2021, 05:15:07 am »
Further information today regarding this series of engines on 777s from Blancolirio, a trustworthy source...


 

Offline james_s

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2021, 05:24:37 am »
It's obviously not Boeing's fault, but it still reflects badly on them simply because most people don't understand that Boeing doesn't build the engines.

On the other hand, engine failure was mostly contained and the plane landed safely with nobody hurt. That's close to the best possible outcome of something like this.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2021, 05:48:17 am »
isent it up to boeing to analyze the engine to make sure its good? They vet the subassembly after all. It will be complicated to figure out whos fault it is

i.e.
lack of maintenance
incorrect maintenance
bad from factory
1) design flaw
2) manufacturing defect (QC fail)
installed incorrectly/damaged during installation
system interfaced incorrectly (the engine has I/O), or its just not compatible with the design for whatever mechanical reason, if its not related to hydraulics or electronics or telemetry
failed to inspect device before/after installation
failed to perform more stringent tests
control safety system fail (did not monitor telemetry or handwaving was involved)

of course its up to the investigators to find out what happened
« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 05:50:37 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline drussell

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2021, 07:05:46 am »
isent it up to boeing to analyze the engine to make sure its good? They vet the subassembly after all. It will be complicated to figure out whos fault it is

No, the special sonic + thermal imaging tests are only performed at Pratt & Whitney's manufacturing facility when fan blade inspections are required,

Quote
i.e.
lack of maintenance
incorrect maintenance
bad from factory
1) design flaw
2) manufacturing defect (QC fail)
installed incorrectly/damaged during installation
system interfaced incorrectly (the engine has I/O), or its just not compatible with the design for whatever mechanical reason, if its not related to hydraulics or electronics or telemetry
failed to inspect device before/after installation
failed to perform more stringent tests
control safety system fail (did not monitor telemetry or handwaving was involved)

of course its up to the investigators to find out what happened

Did you watch the video?  The tests are explained in there.  It is quite possibly the same issues as the UAL flight 1175 blade failure, which was basically improper testing during inspection due to multiple factors at Pratt & Whitney.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2021, 02:16:56 pm »
isent it up to boeing to analyze the engine to make sure its good? They vet the subassembly after all. It will be complicated to figure out whos fault it is

i.e.
lack of maintenance
incorrect maintenance
bad from factory
1) design flaw
2) manufacturing defect (QC fail)
installed incorrectly/damaged during installation
system interfaced incorrectly (the engine has I/O), or its just not compatible with the design for whatever mechanical reason, if its not related to hydraulics or electronics or telemetry
failed to inspect device before/after installation
failed to perform more stringent tests
control safety system fail (did not monitor telemetry or handwaving was involved)

of course its up to the investigators to find out what happened

Oh, for crying out loud - no, it's NOT Boeing at fault here.  Maybe some maintenance procedures - but they would not have originated from Boeing responsible components.

When purchasing a plane, there are two steps: 1. Choose the airframe and 2. Choose the engines.  For a Boeing 777, I believe there are 3 choices of engine - Pratt & Whitney, Rolls Royce or GE.

Boeing don't make engines.  They make airframes.  The engine had a failure.  The airframe held up very nicely.


Pratt and Whitney are the ones with egg on their face at the moment.
 
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Online coppice

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2021, 02:39:02 pm »
Oh, for crying out loud - no, it's NOT Boeing at fault here.  Maybe some maintenance procedures - but they would not have originated from Boeing responsible components.
If my TV breaks I wouldn't say "Its not LG's fault. They didn't make the component that broke.". Anyone integrating parts into a product is responsible for the whole product.
 

Offline drussell

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2021, 04:12:21 pm »
Oh, for crying out loud - no, it's NOT Boeing at fault here.  Maybe some maintenance procedures - but they would not have originated from Boeing responsible components.
If my TV breaks I wouldn't say "Its not LG's fault. They didn't make the component that broke.". Anyone integrating parts into a product is responsible for the whole product.

That is not at all the way it works in the aircraft industry.

Boeing doesn't do the fancy inspections necessary to maintain or overhaul the engines.  That is entirely the engine manufacturer's domain.  Boeing quite literally have nothing to do with it other than having the misfortune of having offered that particular engine as one of the options to the purchaser of the aircraft.

There is absolutely nothing, zero, zip, nada, that Boeing could have done to somehow find this issue.
 
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Online coppercone2

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2021, 07:09:43 pm »
Oh, for crying out loud - no, it's NOT Boeing at fault here.  Maybe some maintenance procedures - but they would not have originated from Boeing responsible components.
If my TV breaks I wouldn't say "Its not LG's fault. They didn't make the component that broke.". Anyone integrating parts into a product is responsible for the whole product.

so the explanation I read in this thread makes me think the profession I took is way too complicated because it seems easier to pick a plane engine then a damn single resistor. I can't even do that. I can still fuck a resistor choice in a way that they will blame me. I just know unless I do a fair bit of thinking someone is going to come out of the wood work and tell someone 'you needed a more experienced guy to make that part placement decision for you because'... then it will come down to if a company feels like defending me. Not saying its hard or likely to happen but I still need to usually consider some things other then the description on the digikey baggie if its serious.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 07:15:27 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2021, 07:14:45 pm »
If my TV breaks I wouldn't say "Its not LG's fault. They didn't make the component that broke.". Anyone integrating parts into a product is responsible for the whole product.

A TV is not an airliner, not even close. When purchasing a TV you don't get to choose what brand of power supply it includes. The situation with an airliner is more like what you have with outboard powered boats. The outboard motor may be included as part of a package deal, but you will choose the specific motor that you want installed, and if the motor blows up that isn't the fault of the boat builder, you take it up with the manufacture of the motor you selected or the dealer you purchased it from.

Turbine engines are incredibly complex and expensive machines, large ones cost tens of millions of dollars each. The engines and ancillary components are a package deal engineered by the engine manufacture, the airframe manufacture does the integration, providing the mounting brackets and fairings and such. If an engine needs to be serviced, technicians trained to work on that specific engine do the work, not the airframe manufacture, they don't design engines, they don't build engines, they don't service or support engines, they design and build airframes to support the engines the customer selects. If there is a problem with the engine, that is 100% the responsibility of the engine manufacture unless an airframe problem caused the engine to fail.

Unfortunately as has been illustrated here, ignorance of the general public is going to put egg on Boeing's face even though it is not deserved. People assume that a $320M aircraft is anything like a $400 consumer TV set or a family car.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 09:54:42 pm by james_s »
 
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Online Gyro

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2021, 07:24:35 pm »
I remember a documentary a few years ago about Rolls Royce (the aircraft engine make, not the car maker).

They have a monitoring centre that monitors telemetry all the engines they have in service whilst in flight. Presumably other manufacturers have the same (otherwise it would be a compelling reason to buy RR!). They provide constant monitoring data to the airlines about the state of their engines, real time information on any developing problems - vibration profiles, pressure abnormalities etc. together with immediate technical support.

In this respect, the engines are in-flight manufacturer supported entities in their own right - rather unlike a component in a TV.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline drussell

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2021, 07:56:43 pm »
so the explanation I read in this thread makes me think the profession I took is way too complicated because it seems easier to pick a plane engine then a damn single resistor. I can't even do that. I can still fuck a resistor choice in a way that they will blame me.

Really?

You want to live in the aerospace world where each specific unit of each model of crimper that you use to make connections to pin terminals, even in some non-vital connector, must be sent out for calibration checks and re-certified every year and you have to track the serial numbers of every batch of every wire and every pin and connector housing you use, every other part and piece you use, so that when someone farther up the supply chain fucks up you know where to go to find out where else that same failure might possibly show up?  It is an absolute nightmare when people up above "you" in this kind of highly-documented, high-reliability, traceable-at-every-stage screw up something which is why there is the whole traceability system in there in the first place. 

The fact that improperly re-certified parts are apparently repeatedly being put back into service by Pratt & Whitney when they are going to end up sometimes failing catastrophically before their next inspection being blamed on Boeing (not that Boeing is some perfect saint, mind you) is totally disingenuous.  This one is not Boeing's fault.

The fact that the clueless mass media narrative doesn't ever even attempt to make a distinction in cases like this so that even technically-minded engineer people are so hopelessly misled is frightening.  Tupolev = Tragic, Boeing = Bad, Airbus = Awesome is a shortsighted view of the actual inner workings of the whole, incredibly complex (and astoundingly reliable, highly regulated) industry.
 
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Online Monkeh

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2021, 08:14:16 pm »
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2021, 08:15:45 pm »
The plane had flown under 3,000 cycles which is less than half before blade inspection is due at 6,500 cycles. It seems like a very long time between inspections. That engine has bigger, fewer turbine blades, hollow so maybe they pushed the tech too far and gave unicorn and rainbow inspection frequency to make the engines seem cheaper to maintain.
It could also be a manufacturing issue- nothing to do with engineering.
 

Offline ve7xen

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2021, 04:45:48 am »
Airbus = Awesome

AF447.

 |O If ever there were an accident where it was appropriate to say 'it was completely pilot error', this is it. There's always blame to go around, and there were some HMI problems identified with the Airbus flight controls, but you really can't blame the airframe or control systems for a pilot continually doing the opposite of what they were trained to do and the procedures say to do for multiple minutes while they fly the plane into the sea. The pilots still have mostly ultimate authority, and if what they are actively doing is going to crash the plane, with the exception of alpha-prot, the airframe isn't going to stop them.

Quote
The plane had flown under 3,000 cycles which is less than half before blade inspection is due at 6,500 cycles. It seems like a very long time between inspections. That engine has bigger, fewer turbine blades, hollow so maybe they pushed the tech too far and gave unicorn and rainbow inspection frequency to make the engines seem cheaper to maintain.

This is my thought now that a bit more has come out. Since it's been so many cycles since the last inspection, it's going to be very interesting whether they decide the crack would have been detectable during the inspection or not. If they can figure it out, how it grew is going to play a major part here, but regardless it looks like the inspection window will probably be shrunk significantly if they can't identify and fix a problem with the inspection process itself.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 04:47:29 am by ve7xen »
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Online Monkeh

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2021, 04:52:23 am »
Airbus = Awesome

AF447.

 |O If ever there were an accident where it was appropriate to say 'it was completely pilot error', this is it. There's always blame to go around, and there were some HMI problems identified with the Airbus flight controls, but you really can't blame the airframe or control systems for a pilot continually doing the opposite of what they were trained to do and the procedures say to do for multiple minutes while they fly the plane into the sea. The pilots still have mostly ultimate authority, and if what they are actively doing is going to crash the plane, with the exception of alpha-prot, the airframe isn't going to stop them.

I attribute a degree of blame to Airbus because the pilots (neither particularly good, clearly) were unable to accept they were in a stall because it's an Airbus, and it won't let you stall. Except when it does.

And yes, it was pilot error. Like most pilot errors, there are contributing factors.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 04:57:53 am by Monkeh »
 

Offline ve7xen

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2021, 08:42:13 pm »
I attribute a degree of blame to Airbus because the pilots (neither particularly good, clearly) were unable to accept they were in a stall because it's an Airbus, and it won't let you stall. Except when it does.

And yes, it was pilot error. Like most pilot errors, there are contributing factors.

Usually I'm with you on there being multiple critical factors to blame, I just don't really think that was the case in this accident to the degree it usually is. They identified the unreliable airspeed early on, and understood it later in the sequence, yet never completed the associated procedure nor were their control responses appropriate for that condition. They didn't discuss the stall alarms at all, which is pretty strange, but doesn't lead to the conclusion that they thought they could ignore the continuous stall alarm because they were in normal law; they also called out the shift to alternate law, though I agree it could have easily been missed. There's no excuse for not executing the stall recovery procedure (or even earlier, the unreliable airspeed procedure - some of the items were performed but it was not done in the expected challenge/response systematic manner, nor completed), nor for the PNF to continually provide control inputs after giving the controls to the Captain - or this was a CRM failure where they had conflicting interpretations of who was in control, but regardless it is a piloting issue.

Confusion in complex failures is a relatively common cause of accidents, and I'm usually the first to defend the pilots in a situation with conflicting alarms and information, but in this case the only alarm they were getting initially was STALL STALL, and their conditioned response to that should be to execute a stall recovery or if they were actually looking at their PFD, maybe unusual attitude recovery could be justified. And the only unreliable indication they were receiving was airspeed, which recovered shortly after the incident began. It appears they just completely ignored the attitude indicator they should have known they could trust, as well as the repeated stall warnings. Suspecting unreliable airspeed seems to have led them to mistrust the airplane entirely and ignore everything else it was telling them, and that's not defensible, especially in hard IMC.

The only places where the aircraft could arguably have done a better job IMO would be not suppressing the stall alarm below 60KIAS, and kicking the flight directors completely off when the data was invalid, rather than restoring them as the data came back, but by the time the incident evolved that far, they should have already executed the stall recovery procedure. Even after it did get that far, getting out of stall and back to a normal attitude should be overriding anything else in their minds. Regardless of anything else, including airspeed which was suspect, it would have been obvious they were at an extreme nose up attitude that would lead to stall. You could argue the pilots should have visibility of AoA data, but this isn't unique to Airbus, and they certainly didn't need it to tell them they were stalling the plane, the plane did that all on its own, as would have their attitude indicator.

The BEA didn't request any changes to the airplane as a result of the accident, and I think that's pretty clear indication they don't think any part of it was causal here. It's just bad pilot decision making from the Captain's laissez faire attitude about the weather, to not executing the unreliable airspeed procedure, to ignoring the stall warnings, to applying inappropriate control inputs, to continuing to apply those inputs after the Captain ostensibly took control.

Anyway, apologies for dragging this off topic, just get tired of people bringing up AF447 as if it's clearly the fault of Airbus; even with the most generous interpretation, the airplane plays a minor part in this accident.
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Offline Cubdriver

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2021, 09:56:30 pm »
I attribute a degree of blame to Airbus because the pilots (neither particularly good, clearly) were unable to accept they were in a stall because it's an Airbus, and it won't let you stall. Except when it does.

And yes, it was pilot error. Like most pilot errors, there are contributing factors.

Usually I'm with you on there being multiple critical factors to blame, I just don't really think that was the case in this accident to the degree it usually is. They identified the unreliable airspeed early on, and understood it later in the sequence, yet never completed the associated procedure nor were their control responses appropriate for that condition. They didn't discuss the stall alarms at all, which is pretty strange, but doesn't lead to the conclusion that they thought they could ignore the continuous stall alarm because they were in normal law; they also called out the shift to alternate law, though I agree it could have easily been missed. There's no excuse for not executing the stall recovery procedure (or even earlier, the unreliable airspeed procedure - some of the items were performed but it was not done in the expected challenge/response systematic manner, nor completed), nor for the PNF to continually provide control inputs after giving the controls to the Captain - or this was a CRM failure where they had conflicting interpretations of who was in control, but regardless it is a piloting issue.

Confusion in complex failures is a relatively common cause of accidents, and I'm usually the first to defend the pilots in a situation with conflicting alarms and information, but in this case the only alarm they were getting initially was STALL STALL, and their conditioned response to that should be to execute a stall recovery or if they were actually looking at their PFD, maybe unusual attitude recovery could be justified. And the only unreliable indication they were receiving was airspeed, which recovered shortly after the incident began. It appears they just completely ignored the attitude indicator they should have known they could trust, as well as the repeated stall warnings. Suspecting unreliable airspeed seems to have led them to mistrust the airplane entirely and ignore everything else it was telling them, and that's not defensible, especially in hard IMC.

The only places where the aircraft could arguably have done a better job IMO would be not suppressing the stall alarm below 60KIAS, and kicking the flight directors completely off when the data was invalid, rather than restoring them as the data came back, but by the time the incident evolved that far, they should have already executed the stall recovery procedure. Even after it did get that far, getting out of stall and back to a normal attitude should be overriding anything else in their minds. Regardless of anything else, including airspeed which was suspect, it would have been obvious they were at an extreme nose up attitude that would lead to stall. You could argue the pilots should have visibility of AoA data, but this isn't unique to Airbus, and they certainly didn't need it to tell them they were stalling the plane, the plane did that all on its own, as would have their attitude indicator.

The BEA didn't request any changes to the airplane as a result of the accident, and I think that's pretty clear indication they don't think any part of it was causal here. It's just bad pilot decision making from the Captain's laissez faire attitude about the weather, to not executing the unreliable airspeed procedure, to ignoring the stall warnings, to applying inappropriate control inputs, to continuing to apply those inputs after the Captain ostensibly took control.

Anyway, apologies for dragging this off topic, just get tired of people bringing up AF447 as if it's clearly the fault of Airbus; even with the most generous interpretation, the airplane plays a minor part in this accident.

The problem I have with the Airbus design with its decoupled side sticks is perfectly illustrated in this incident - the pilot flying is mistaken, and is inputting full nose up on his control stick.  The guy on the other side of the cockpit doesn't realize this, because he can push his stick full forward independently.  The aural warning says something about the mixed control inputs, but that can be missed in the confusion.  Boeing's control columns are coupled together - the guy in the right seat is going to know what the guy in the left seat is doing, because his control wheel moves in unison.  From what I've read of that accident, it seems that at times the left seater was trying to lower the nose, but the right seater had control authority and so it stayed up.  There'd have been no question how the controls were positioned in a Boeing craft, as BOTH the yokes would have been pulled back, and you can FEEL if the guy next to you is fighting you on the controls.  Seems to be a fundamental design flaw in the controls that can rise up under confusing/stressful situations to bite you hard in the ass, permitting erroneous control inputs where one side has no idea what the other is doing, as we saw here.

-Pat

<edit - switched seats>
« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 10:00:30 pm by Cubdriver »
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Online Monkeh

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2021, 10:30:03 pm »
Anyway, apologies for dragging this off topic, just get tired of people bringing up AF447 as if it's clearly the fault of Airbus; even with the most generous interpretation, the airplane plays a minor part in this accident.

It's not clearly the fault of Airbus, I just don't hold that "Airbus = awesome". The whole concept of preventing the pilot from making improper control inputs and applying flying skill right up until the moment those skills are necessary is, in my opinion, a mistake, and one I believe contributed to that incident, among others. AF296, perhaps - yes, pilot error, compounded by "the computer will protect us" (the whole point of the demonstration) and "oh crap, the computer won't let me pull up".
 

Offline james_s

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Re: And now the Boeing 777...
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2021, 10:41:22 pm »
The problem I have with the Airbus design with its decoupled side sticks is perfectly illustrated in this incident - the pilot flying is mistaken, and is inputting full nose up on his control stick.  The guy on the other side of the cockpit doesn't realize this, because he can push his stick full forward independently.  The aural warning says something about the mixed control inputs, but that can be missed in the confusion.  Boeing's control columns are coupled together - the guy in the right seat is going to know what the guy in the left seat is doing, because his control wheel moves in unison.  From what I've read of that accident, it seems that at times the left seater was trying to lower the nose, but the right seater had control authority and so it stayed up.  There'd have been no question how the controls were positioned in a Boeing craft, as BOTH the yokes would have been pulled back, and you can FEEL if the guy next to you is fighting you on the controls.  Seems to be a fundamental design flaw in the controls that can rise up under confusing/stressful situations to bite you hard in the ass, permitting erroneous control inputs where one side has no idea what the other is doing, as we saw here.

I do very much prefer the Boeing cockpit layout. Although I am not a pilot myself, mechanically coupling the controls on both seats is one of those things that just seems like an obviously good idea. I also think a yoke is a much more logical input device for something like an airliner than a stick, but again I'm not a pilot so I have not experienced either one outside of PC simulators.
 
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