EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: Corporate666 on April 02, 2016, 11:06:50 pm
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My main work area is a 36" x 96" butcher-block top workbench. I love it... but a wood top wouldn't hold up well over time. So I bought some Sierra FT series ESD matting from All Spec.
It sucks. It stayed flat only for a matter of weeks, and now it's got giant bubbles in it that are so bad my keyboard won't sit flat. I've heard that it's caused by heating/cooling of the matting. Well, I use a hot air station, a soldering station and I microwave my lunch every day and put it on my desk while I eat and so-on. I even have a big slab of aluminum plate I put down before I do any hot air work or soldering work, I don't do it right on the matting, but still, it's all bubbled and deformed.
Is there any matting that is immune to heat? Frankly, I don't care about the ESD safe nature of it. I just want something protective. My previous desk was glass which was good. I have another of these butcher block workbenches that I put a 1/4" thick polyethylene sheet over and it's great. Any other ideas? I would ideally like something thin, soft, light in color, that will take the abuse of daily work and keep the bench top nice, and that will stay flat. Maybe a silcone baking sheet? Or just buy a roll of silicone sheet? Or something else?
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Double sided stick tape is your friend.
A friend gave me a 3M static dissipating mat and I hold it down with a few well placed peaces of two sided tape.
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Double sided stick tape is your friend.
A friend gave me a 3M static dissipating mat and I hold it down with a few well placed peaces of two sided tape.
That or some spray on adhesive.
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Double sided stick tape is your friend.
A friend gave me a 3M static dissipating mat and I hold it down with a few well placed peaces of two sided tape.
I've heard (and observed, I think?) that the issue is the rubber matting expands with heat, and it never contracts the same amount - so that material has to go somewhere and turns into a bubble. I'm not experiencing small deformations - but I have a giant area about 20cm across that sticks up 2-3cm off the table. Then the edge of the mat is rippled - it undulates by maybe 2cm up and 2cm down.
It's way too warped for tape to be effective, I'm afraid. And I already try to avoid too much direct heat, and don't want to try to modify my habits further, so it seems like a different kind of material would be better.
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I have never heard of this. Seems like everyplace I have worked, we used 3M. The first mat I bought for home was from 3M. Brown over gold. I just replaced it a few weeks ago with another 3M which is much thinner. Staying flat. Strange..
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I've heard (and observed, I think?) that the issue is the rubber matting expands with heat, and it never contracts the same amount - so that material has to go somewhere and turns into a bubble. I'm not experiencing small deformations - but I have a giant area about 20cm across that sticks up 2-3cm off the table. Then the edge of the mat is rippled - it undulates by maybe 2cm up and 2cm down.
It's way too warped for tape to be effective, I'm afraid. And I already try to avoid too much direct heat, and don't want to try to modify my habits further, so it seems like a different kind of material would be better.
Is your mat being subjected to a lot of heat; say from a hot air wand?
If so I would find a way to shield the mat from that heat.
These mats; at least the good ones are very heat resistant.
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FWIW, I've not experienced this with the heavy duty Scientific America matting I got from the Canadian eBay seller, canvu0_0 (http://stores.ebay.com/canvu0-0?_trksid=p2047675.l2563) (0.080" thick), or the thinner Sierra mat from All-Spec (0.060' thick; seems they don't even carry this thickness anymore). If it matters to anyone, Scientific America mat is made in Canada, while the Sierra is made in China.
I've not had problems with either mat, but I've only used the thinner Sierra mat as a protective surface for tearing items apart for repair, so no heat exposure at all. All the soldering/desolder work is then carried out on the thicker matting.
Wish you had better luck with the thicker 0.080" FT series. But I'd recommend trying a spray-on adhesive between the mat and say a thin bit of wood, such as a door skin to reduce costs (specifically 3M Hi-Tack 76 (http://www.amazon.com/3M-Hi-Tack-76-Adhesive-18-1-Ounce/dp/B000LDIL3Y) or 3M Heavy Duty 20 (http://www.amazon.com/3M-Heavy-Spray-Adhesive-Weight/dp/B0048KHKAG); good for <230F and = 210F heat resistance respectively). Please note I'm partial to covering entire table surfaces whenever possible, which isn't inexpensive.
Worst case, if it doesn't turn out well, you've not permanently bonded anything to your table surface and shouldn't be out a lot of cash (particularly for the HD #20 & a door skin, which should come to ~$20). ;)
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Double sided stick tape is your friend.
A friend gave me a 3M static dissipating mat and I hold it down with a few well placed peaces of two sided tape.
I've heard (and observed, I think?) that the issue is the rubber matting expands with heat, and it never contracts the same amount - so that material has to go somewhere and turns into a bubble. I'm not experiencing small deformations - but I have a giant area about 20cm across that sticks up 2-3cm off the table. Then the edge of the mat is rippled - it undulates by maybe 2cm up and 2cm down.
It's way too warped for tape to be effective, I'm afraid. And I already try to avoid too much direct heat, and don't want to try to modify my habits further, so it seems like a different kind of material would be better.
It's still fine, an adhesive tape will help with it (before it becomes worse). Just get some good one, as some crappy tape will unstick after some time. The worst thing is that mat will start to disintegrate with the time it the places where bulges happen if you do not attach it to the desk.
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I was going to purchase a Sierra mat since it was a bit cheaper than the SCS mat (3M) Maybe I should go for the SCS mat?
http://www.all-spec.com/products/Flooring_and_Matting%7CESD-Safe_Benchtop_Matting%7CMAT-00/FTW110DB.html (http://www.all-spec.com/products/Flooring_and_Matting%7CESD-Safe_Benchtop_Matting%7CMAT-00/FTW110DB.html)
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I've never had any issues with my All-Spec Sierra mats staying flat. I have 2 of them on different benches. Perhaps it's a issue of temp and humidity?
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I also have a butcher block bench with a McMaster Carr ESD matte on it. It's a few years old now and has been subjected to rather rotten treatment - still flat. The solder balls, and other hazards have not messed it up yet. I have a spare, but it looks like I have many more years on the current one.
Not sure who makes it.
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I use a large bamboo cutting board on top of my plastic work bench. So far nothing has damaged the cutting board (I do not cut on it) but have had burning objects on it (accidentally).
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I have never heard of this. Seems like everyplace I have worked, we used 3M. The first mat I bought for home was from 3M. Brown over gold. I just replaced it a few weeks ago with another 3M which is much thinner. Staying flat. Strange..
Maybe I have a crappy quality mat, then. I have this one:
http://www.all-spec.com/products/ftw160g.html (http://www.all-spec.com/products/ftw160g.html)
I noticed in Dave's videos and on some other electronics channels I watch that nobody else seems to have this issue.
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Is your mat being subjected to a lot of heat; say from a hot air wand?
If so I would find a way to shield the mat from that heat.
These mats; at least the good ones are very heat resistant.
I do use an air wand but I have a 7" x 12" x 1/2" thick (18 x 30 x 1 cm) plate of aluminum I put down first. My wand use is pretty much just rework or chip replacement on small boards and, having such a high heat capacity, the aluminum plate never goes beyond lukewarm to the touch. The only other heat is a plastic tub containing my lunch that comes from the microwave... but it's not even too hot to hold in my hand, so I'd be surprised if that's causing the issue. I'm at my desk now, I will post a pic.
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I have similar problems with my mat but not as severe. I got it for free and it doesn't have any manufacturer's markings, but know where it came from, I'm pretty sure it is a decent brand. My bench is a cheap folding leg type table from Office depot and I peeled the fake woodgrain off the top years ago, so when the mat wants to bow up, I just stick it back down with a few shots of Krylon clear spray paint. I usually give it overnight to dry with a few books to weight it down.
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This is my matting.
What prompted me to post this is firstly that it's been an ongoing annoyance, but I was watching the iPad Rehab channel and the lady was using a heat gun on a board just inches from her desktop which was covered by a blue ESD mat. I presume she does this regularly and her mat is perfectly flat. On the other hand, here I am going to lengths to avoid heat on the mat and mine looks like ass.
The other thing I wonder is that my monitors are to the left and my desk is a few inches higher than a standard desk, because I am quite tall and it saves me hunching over so much to look in the microscope or probing boards. But that height makes it easy to rest my whole right arm from my bicep to my wrist on the desk while using my mouse or typing. Maybe a year of heavy computer use and moving my arm about has pulled and stretched the rubber mat causing it to warp?
I see folks saying to tape it down... I'm just hesitant to do that because there's already rubber residue on the wood desk top from abrasion, and I think if I glue it down, then if I ever go to remove it, there will be chunks of rubber everywhere.
I'm tempted to get a thin piece of tempered glass cut and just finish the desktop nicely (sand/varnish) and put the glass down. My previous desk was glass and it was absolutely awesome in terms of holding up to solder blobs and flux residue. Scrape it down with a razorblade, some glass cleaner and it looked good as new. Or some other material - thin plastic, perhaps.
Or another ESD mat if the one I got is just crap quality and most of them don't do this.
Thanks for replies, everyone.
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I've never had any issues with my All-Spec Sierra mats staying flat. I have 2 of them on different benches. Perhaps it's a issue of temp and humidity?
What sort of use do your mats see? Is it just an occasionally used work surface, or do they see daily use? Do you do hot air or soldering on them?
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I'm pretty sure my problems were all due to the mat getting pushed around and stretched out by pressure from my arms resting on it because I don't use any kind of heat guns at that bench. Your mat is deformed much worse than mine, but it appears to be a lot thinner also. If worried about damage to the desk top, maybe put glass or a thin metal sheet under the mat and glue it to that.
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I have been using RS components own brand three layer mats for years and have found they hold up to a lot of abuse and once they settle to the serface they stay flat. Not cheep though.
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/esd-safe-mats/7872118/ (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/esd-safe-mats/7872118/)
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I've never had any issues with my All-Spec Sierra mats staying flat. I have 2 of them on different benches. Perhaps it's a issue of temp and humidity?
What sort of use do your mats see? Is it just an occasionally used work surface, or do they see daily use? Do you do hot air or soldering on them?
On one bench the mat sees almost daily use though not soldering every time. The mat on the other bench sees some soldering and is used more sporadically. Both only see hot air occasionally.
FWIW my Sierra mats are the blue variety FT series.
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What sort of use do your mats see? Is it just an occasionally used work surface, or do they see daily use? Do you do hot air or soldering on them?
I know this ^ wasn't directed at me, but the mat I got from the eBay seller canv0_0 has held up to both molten solder and hot air. It's the same thickness as what you linked (0.080"), and although I don't solder daily, it tends to be a marathon when I do (component purchases + I enjoy it).
No glue or double sided tape required, and I've had it for ~6 yrs.
Given your photos, it makes me think you got a bad mat (poor QC ? :-//). :(
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I'm pretty sure my problems were all due to the mat getting pushed around and stretched out by pressure from my arms resting on it.
Exactly, I noticed this a long time ago. Even high quality rubber mats will eventually become like this in the work area.
If the mat is new and not fucked up yet, attaching only the edge on the side where you are sitting is completely sufficient to prevent this kind of crap.
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My expensive blue dissipative front/black conductive back rubber mat (I forget if it was made by Desco or SCS) has no trouble lying flat. Was a little wary of spending so much at first on it, but I've had no regrets.
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Its quite simple. Quality mats lay flat and stay flat, like 3m etc. if your cheap garbage conforms to your bench top, then consider yourself lucky
The cheap chinese knockoff materials, are not worth it. Save your money. It does not matter what you do to it......the lower quality matting is easy to spot.
Same goes for most other things in life. :-/O
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What about 3-layer vs 2 layer ESD matting? Is one better than the other?
I was looking at a 3 layer SCS mat that looked good, the same size 2-layer one was a little more expensive for whatever reason.
http://www.all-spec.com/products/scs/Flooring_and_Matting%7CESD-Safe_Benchtop_Matting%7CMAT-01/430-101.html (http://www.all-spec.com/products/scs/Flooring_and_Matting%7CESD-Safe_Benchtop_Matting%7CMAT-01/430-101.html)
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This is my matting
Wow those look like total shit.
I didn't buy any terribly expensive mats but they all lay perfectly flat. I have 5x 24" x 60" mats, none where more than ~$100 a pop. I abuse the living crap out of them and have so for some time now. The only thing I have seen bubble them up is leaving a running hot air gun on them for more than 5min or so. Once they cool back off and stop smoking...they might be discolored a bit but lay perfectly flat. I even spilled a few ounces of molten AL on one and outside of blackening them, they are perfectly usable....and flat.
I have two different colors but they are both pretty much bomb proof.
I like this set the best and it was from fleebay. I can tell you they hold up pretty dam well to all of the above...
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Good to hear positive experience with those - I have one in my watch list for as soon as I get my bench built (finally started last weekend). I saw that seller recommended in another thread here as well.
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I bought a mat from "canvu0_0" as well and am pleased with it. I have the 2 layer rubber in grey.
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What about 3-layer vs 2 layer ESD matting? Is one better than the other?
I was looking at a 3 layer SCS mat that looked good, the same size 2-layer one was a little more expensive for whatever reason.
http://www.all-spec.com/products/scs/Flooring_and_Matting%7CESD-Safe_Benchtop_Matting%7CMAT-01/430-101.html (http://www.all-spec.com/products/scs/Flooring_and_Matting%7CESD-Safe_Benchtop_Matting%7CMAT-01/430-101.html)
The 3rd layer is vinyl for additional cushioning is all.
Regarding price, the linked mat is on a bit of a sale (regular price = $79.17). You may not like writing on it as well as the 2 layer matting though (personal preference thing, just like textured vs. smooth).
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My main work area is a 36" x 96" butcher-block top workbench. I love it... but a wood top wouldn't hold up well over time.
End grain butcher block.... will NOT hold up well over time? Refrain from shooting hot air directly onto the surface and oil it every now and then, and it should outlive your children!
My bench is a very thinly veneered and NOT end grain plywood, and it's glorious. I have to admit, my first one didn't hold up so well... I had to learn that hot air thing and the maintenance oiling the hard way. And I keep a butcher block on the bench to take abuse and still remain reference flat. A butcher block is pretty hard to beat at taking a beating and staying flat. :)
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End grain butcher block.... will NOT hold up well over time? Refrain from shooting hot air directly onto the surface and oil it every now and then, and it should outlive your children!
Well, it's not that I think it will break or anything, but it will get stained and grimy and the occasional solder blob and specks of flux and pins of boards under test would take it's toll. I just wanted the durability and heft of a giant wood top, and then something replaceable on top to take the daily abuse.
Might try that eBay one.
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but it will get stained and grimy and the occasional solder blob and specks of flux and pins of boards under test would take it's toll.
If you have an end-grain surface finished with a polymerizing oil (linseed/flaxseed or tung oil), the only concern on the list that might be significantly problematic is staining from a dark, solvent/oil-based pigment.
I use my little bench cutting block to mix epoxy. When done, I scrape it clean with a chisel and wipe with alcohol. I use solvents directly on it. I of course also use it for cutting things, layouts, tape, whatnot. I used to keep a small piece of tempered glass for doing things like this, but end-grain wood is easier on the tools and works just as well.
End grain wood is a great, durable, ESD-safe surface for an electronics bench, IMO.
Also, spilled rosin flux is pretty decent wood treatment, itself.
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So I just got one of the mats off eBay, and like it, but it is a bit wavy. Guessing I just need to give it time, but I'm curious if throwing some type of "lube" (talc) on the table top might get it to flatten out better...
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If its the same ones I got, just give it a day or two. Being tightly coiled up and shipping from the far corners of the world, it takes a bit to lay nice.
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Did you reverse roll it to about double the original diameter and leave it a day or so to take out the 'set' it took during shipping?
If you do decide to try Talc, unperfumed would be safer. However there's no substitute for weighting it down evenly and leaving it a week.
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Haven't tried either of those. I'll try reversing the roll, since it's been a few days, and it's still oddly wavy on the front edge.
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I have one of these on my bench and I am totally satisfied with it:
http://www.pkelektronik.com/esd-vollgummi-gittermatte-610-370-20-mm.html (http://www.pkelektronik.com/esd-vollgummi-gittermatte-610-370-20-mm.html)
And yes, it stays flat. :-)
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uhh... I guess it would keep screws from rolling off the bench. =P :-DD
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i've had no problems with my Sierra mats from All-Spec staying flat. However i think Corporate666 has had problems with his. Perhaps there is variations among manufacturing runs?
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Interesting. I've never heard of this being a problem, but the mat in those pictures looks like total crap.
I've used quite a lot of different brands on benches and never had an issue. The one on my bench for YouTube is just "RS Pro" stuff from rswww.com
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uhh... I guess it would keep screws from rolling off the bench. =P :-DD
It also keeps the equipment you're working on from scratches, because every screw etc. will roll down in the holes. It's also VERY heavy (>4kg).
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I got a SCS mat and it lays flat right out of the box. No worries O0
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Simple cure if it will not lay flat is either a nail gun or some upholstery tacks, and stretch it a little on the surface.