Poll

Were you ever forced into a monthly subscription?

Yes
6 (27.3%)
No
16 (72.7%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Author Topic: Apple hardware subscription as a service  (Read 10246 times)

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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2022, 04:47:42 pm »
I also think it’s stupid for people to get their heckles raised over an unsubstantiated rumor. Y’all are already frothing at the mouth, when literally NOTHING has been announced. Nothing.

Yes, but frothing at the mouth is the raison d'être for a certain type of person where Apple is concerned, or Microsoft, or Linux, or "not Linux" , or whatever that particular individual's personal bête noire is.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2022, 05:15:01 pm »
The post just brings an old fact..

It's not much of a fact when it's wrapped in inarticulate wafflings which make no logical sense and have no connection to the subject.
 
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Offline steve30

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2022, 06:18:45 pm »
The idea of being forced into renting equipment is nothing new. For decades, the GPO (here in England) rented telephones to subscribers. It was only when it was privatised in the 1980s that people were allowed to purchase their own telephones.

In some ways, this kind of thing still happens. e.g. ISPs often provide a "free" router/modem to customers, but require you to send it back or pay for it when you are no longer a customer. Sometimes they try and force you into using this specific equipment.

It is also quite common for people to take out a long (12 or 24 month) mobile phone contract, paying £x per month, with a "free" phone included. They aren't really rented in the sense that you have to send it back afterwards, but you still aren't buying it upfront.

I personally wouldn't go for rented hardware, but I can see how it would be appealing to some people, and profitable to companies.
 
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Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2022, 07:17:14 pm »
The idea of being forced into renting equipment is nothing new. For decades, the GPO (here in England) rented telephones to subscribers. It was only when it was privatised in the 1980s that people were allowed to purchase their own telephones.
Interesting, I never knew that maybe before my time.

Quote
In some ways, this kind of thing still happens. e.g. ISPs often provide a "free" router/modem to customers, but require you to send it back or pay for it when you are no longer a customer.
I read that BT started to do this routers from 2019 after the contract ended announcing some recycling deal they had and would charge customers to keep their old router. 

https://community.bt.com/t5/Bills-Packages/END-OF-CONTRACT-EQUIPMENT-RETURN/td-p/2005975

Quote
Keith_Beddoe Distinguished Sage ‎18-02-2020 15h55 - edited ‎18-02-2020 15h57
@chalky2490  Re: END OF CONTRACT - EQUIPMENT RETURN ?
It depends if you contract started before or after the 13th December 2019.
If its on or after that date, then BT own everything, and it has to be returned.

If it is nothing of interest I'd use my own stuff like I normally and use their equipment during faults.

I remember before joining my existing ISP they offered me these Technicolour business gateways DWA0120's for £19 one off fee (worth about £80) and I said I didn't want them I got my own solution. The man replied that well if there is a problem you'd want one of these to confirm any faults you might be having so we can remotely have a better insight before sending out Openreach and they are yours after the contract. I thought alright then. They have a dedicate access point mode, engineers menu, syslog but there is one flaw, it exposes the web login via the gateway IP and can't find a way to stop it even with a firewall rule, the config whilst can be decrypted and altered has to be resigned with a key before it accepts it. So I just have them on standby in the cupboard and just swap the cables over to them when requedted for faults so they can do their other monitoring and tests through the ACS/TR069 which is rare.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2022, 08:49:29 pm »
The idea of being forced into renting equipment is nothing new. For decades, the GPO (here in England) rented telephones to subscribers. It was only when it was privatised in the 1980s that people were allowed to purchase their own telephones.
Interesting, I never knew that maybe before my time.
FWIW, that’s how it was in most of the world. The 1980s were roughly when most countries loosened up their telecom systems and allowed customer-provided equipment.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2022, 09:08:03 pm »
I gave the years for this changeover from rental to ownership of telephones in the US way up above in reply #7.
 
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Offline amyk

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2022, 01:25:59 am »
Eventually you will have to do it unless you don't want a cell phone. Apple will do it first but then other manufacturers will follow.
Or just buy an unlocked one from Aliexpress or whatever online store that specializes in that type of stuff by then.
Do you think they won't be ready to pounce on the opportunity of milking their own userssubscribers too?

I still remember when the majority of unbranded/clone Chinese phones came with removable batteries, expandable storage, dual SIM, headphone jack(!), and a full complement of sensors --- at all a very reasonable price. Now you can barely find any that satisfy even two of those requirements. The new model is often the same as the old, with stuff removed.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2022, 03:46:30 am »
Do you think they won't be ready to pounce on the opportunity of milking their own userssubscribers too?
Good reason to develop long range P2P wireless mesh networks based on open source hardware and software to keep the telecoms honest.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2022, 06:26:22 pm »
Bloomberg's "tech reporter" Mark Gurman "widely regarded as one of the greatest Apple leakers of all-time" 86.4% accurate lol.
Fanboys aside, it'll set a precedent for consumer electronics along with tons of corporate overreach and greed. I am surprised the driver behind it all is whiny baby investors that can't handle uncertainty in their stocks, aggravated by the pandemic. They want solid numbers for revenue, stability which subscriptions theoretically provide.

Looking forward to my scopes and spectrum analyzers having a subscription model  :palm: we all know a corporation or two that would love to roll that out.



 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2022, 07:21:58 pm »
The chances that Apple would stop selling hardware outright is somewhere between zero, nil, and zilch. With that out of the way, the “precedent” it would set is of a company offering leased hardware. Yeah, just like companies have been doing for ages. So again, what’s the novelty here??
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #60 on: March 29, 2022, 09:44:25 pm »
Quote
The chances that Apple would stop selling hardware outright is somewhere between zero, nil, and zilch.

Why are you so sure? It would solve a lot of issues for them. The marketplace hasn't been ready for that kind of thing yet (not leasing or whatever you want to call it, but rent-only products) so history isn't a good indicator of future. Adobe shows that companies can and will do exactly that if they think they can get away with it, and maybe with users nowadays comfortable with the subscriptions of various kinds they are ready to go just that little bit further and accept an automatic new phone every 2 years for very little outlay. Rich gits will still be able to show they are by still getting the stupidly expensive ones.

Note: I am not suggesting that Apple will do this, I am asking why it's a dead certainty that they wouldn't.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2022, 02:10:31 am »
It’s because eliminating outright sales altogether would result in numerous negative consequences.

For starters, that rentals and leases are subject to various laws in jurisdictions around the world, so eliminating sales entirely would predicate an enormous legal effort.

Second, if the point of this is to ensure an ongoing revenue stream, then they’ll need to make sure that you are financially capable of paying the fee, before they hand you a $500-1300 piece of hardware. That means credit checks. And that means having some alternate mechanism for people who fail the credit check to obtain the device anyway. That’d have to be either a deposit or a sale, neither of which is an ongoing revenue stream.

Third, they rely heavily on third party resellers (especially mobile network operators) to sell a ton of devices. If they pulled out of that, depriving those network operators of their cut of the sale price, you bet those companies would start pushing competing products HARD. That’d mean lost sales. (Remember, the number of countries where Apple doesn’t do any direct hardware sales is larger than the number of countries where they do!)

Finally, they also know that there will be many customers, including some large companies, which do not want to lease. It’s be stupid to forfeit those sales entirely.


Comparisons with software are pointless and disingenuous: there’s nothing to recover if someone stops paying. They just disable the software and that’s that, but no capital is lost. Hardware is very different since there’s a significant capital investment in the asset. The fact that they could remote-disable it wouldn’t magically recover the actual cost of the device.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2022, 11:44:37 am »
Quote
It’s because eliminating outright sales altogether would result in numerous negative consequences.

There would certainly be consequences, but would they outweigh the benefits? In the short term Apple can motor on taking a hit if there will be a good return later on. Don't forget they have so much cash they have trouble bringing it home, so there's a lot of money abroad which could usefully be spent on abroad to achieve some end.

Quote
they’ll need to make sure that you are financially capable of paying the fee, before they hand you a $500-1300 piece of hardware. That means credit checks. And that means having some alternate mechanism for people who fail the credit check to obtain the device anyway.

Maybe. Adobe isn't bothered by this, and perhaps Apple would go the same way: your phone phones home all the time (which they all do anyway) and won't work if it's not authorised. Sure, some toerag could decide he wants to nick it, but it will be worthless (apart from perhaps as parts) since it won't work. All phones already have that kind of capability built in but it's a drag to activate and it only deals with connections. Apple can easily extend that to just locking the entire thing.

Quote
Third, they rely heavily on third party resellers (especially mobile network operators) to sell a ton of devices. If they pulled out of that, depriving those network operators of their cut of the sale price, you bet those companies would start pushing competing products HARD.

They'll still need distributors sell the contracts, distribute the phones, update the stuff, etc. But if, over time, the sellers were no longer necessary that wouldn't be a hard stop. It would be a temporary problem if it happened overnight, but it won't.

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Finally, they also know that there will be many customers, including some large companies, which do not want to lease.

Yes, but as I pointed out, things have changed a lot and now leasing software is now accepted as normal. And phones are not exactly irreplaceable as software is - if you lose the phone or switch brand you don't find you can no longer contact all your old friends! I don't think the leasing aspect will be much of a problem for an Apple product - you buy into the walled garden precisely because Apple basically oversee everything. Finally, you already cough a subscription on phones just to make calls. Extending that to the hardware won't be a big issue. The lack of old ewaste in the drawer you can't get rid of, and a new model every year or two, will be attractive.

Quote
Comparisons with software are pointless and disingenuous: there’s nothing to recover if someone stops paying. They just disable the software and that’s that, but no capital is lost.

Maybe. The economics will change anyway since you don't want the old phones you've just upgraded polluting the market, so the hardware would have to be disposable (at least recyclable) and losing some will be priced in. Phones can also tell the bounty hunters where they are...
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2022, 12:42:38 pm »
Quote
It’s because eliminating outright sales altogether would result in numerous negative consequences.

There would certainly be consequences, but would they outweigh the benefits? In the short term Apple can motor on taking a hit if there will be a good return later on. Don't forget they have so much cash they have trouble bringing it home, so there's a lot of money abroad which could usefully be spent on abroad to achieve some end.
Decimating their market share during that period would be something that would be very difficult to recover from.

Quote
they’ll need to make sure that you are financially capable of paying the fee, before they hand you a $500-1300 piece of hardware. That means credit checks. And that means having some alternate mechanism for people who fail the credit check to obtain the device anyway.

Maybe. Adobe isn't bothered by this, and perhaps Apple would go the same way: your phone phones home all the time (which they all do anyway) and won't work if it's not authorised. Sure, some toerag could decide he wants to nick it, but it will be worthless (apart from perhaps as parts) since it won't work. All phones already have that kind of capability built in but it's a drag to activate and it only deals with connections. Apple can easily extend that to just locking the entire thing.
Again, comparisons with software are disingenuous. If an Adobe customer stops paying, Adobe doesn’t lose anything (other than a customer). If a hardware rental customer stops paying, they have lost the hardware, and recovering it would likely exceed its value. This is why leasing and renting at sensible rates requires a credit check, and why no-credit-check/low credit score rentals are obscenely expensive.

Apple already has activation locks, etc., which they already use to lock demo devices stolen from stores. (Which is why some devices aren’t even locked down.) But even such devices have some residual value on the used market.


Quote
Third, they rely heavily on third party resellers (especially mobile network operators) to sell a ton of devices. If they pulled out of that, depriving those network operators of their cut of the sale price, you bet those companies would start pushing competing products HARD.

They'll still need distributors sell the contracts, distribute the phones, update the stuff, etc. But if, over time, the sellers were no longer necessary that wouldn't be a hard stop. It would be a temporary problem if it happened overnight, but it won't.
The whole point here, as I understood it, was that the “subscription” would be billed just like Apple’s online services. I cannot imagine any scenario where Apple would want to force resellers into being agents for a financial service. It just doesn’t make sense if the goal is to increase your own revenue.

What do you mean about resellers needing to “update” the phones? Arguably the most important change Apple caused in the mobile phone industry is breaking the carriers’ stronghold on phone software. To this day, Apple does not create carrier-specific software, nor give them veto power over software releases. (They only allow carriers to create config files for the OS.)

Quote
Finally, they also know that there will be many customers, including some large companies, which do not want to lease.

Yes, but as I pointed out, things have changed a lot and now leasing software is now accepted as normal. And phones are not exactly irreplaceable as software is - if you lose the phone or switch brand you don't find you can no longer contact all your old friends! I don't think the leasing aspect will be much of a problem for an Apple product - you buy into the walled garden precisely because Apple basically oversee everything. Finally, you already cough a subscription on phones just to make calls. Extending that to the hardware won't be a big issue. The lack of old ewaste in the drawer you can't get rid of, and a new model every year or two, will be attractive.
Repeat after me until you actually understand this: Hardware 👏 is 👏 not 👏 software. 👏

The fact that software companies have been able to force consumers and small businesses into subscriptions (a change that didn’t affect large customers anyway, since they have used subscription-style site licenses since forever) doesn’t mean it translates into hardware.

People but Apple because they want stuff that works. The fact that the walled garden is how Apple provides this doesn’t mean the walled garden is the thing people are after.

Quote
Comparisons with software are pointless and disingenuous: there’s nothing to recover if someone stops paying. They just disable the software and that’s that, but no capital is lost.

Maybe. The economics will change anyway since you don't want the old phones you've just upgraded polluting the market, so the hardware would have to be disposable (at least recyclable) and losing some will be priced in. Phones can also tell the bounty hunters where they are...
If Apple didn’t want “old” phones “polluting” the market, they wouldn’t sell refurb units, nor sell on pre-owned units onto the secondary market, which they do.

And if Apple wanted to artificially limit the useful life of “old” phones, they wouldn’t offer the hands-down, by a wide margin, longest software support for their phones.

Just… sorry, none of your argument makes sense.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2022, 01:05:47 pm »
Yes, but as I pointed out, things have changed a lot and now leasing software is now accepted as normal.

That's an unwarranted assertion. There are a lot of people who point blank refuse to use subscription based software, myself included. You only have to note the number of comments along the lines of "No. Hell, no! Never!" that come up on here whenever the subject is raised. So "now accepted as normal" - not proven in my opinion.

Anyone who has ever experienced a few months of "no money", or has the imagination and is realistic enough to know that it could happen to them, ought to think twice before putting themselves into the situation where things they expect to have the use of for everyday living could go away if they temporarily can't afford the subscription/rental/leasing payments on something. You'd be well stuffed if you lost your job and didn't have the use of your phone while arranging interviews etc.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2022, 02:58:52 pm »
So "now accepted as normal" - not proven in my opinion.

I have seen that argument used before.

Normally I expect, yes or no but I have seen "accepting them" in there and sometimes "don't know" but then I expect the facts to be explained clearly before making a yes or no.


Reminds me of this in 2011:
https://www.cnet.com/tech/home-entertainment/weve-had-enough-of-on-screen-logos/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/aboutthebbc/2011/04/digital-on-screen-graphics-res.shtml

Quote
How do people feel about DOGs?
Despite the fact that they are rarely noticed and their usefulness in identifying the channel, the research did show that the audience have mixed views about DOGs:

around a quarter of all TV viewers hold negative views about DOGs
a similar proportion (27% ) are broadly accepting of them
around half of do not have consistently strong views either ways
The research also shows that even amongst those who dislike DOGs, many still agree (4 in 10) that they play a helpful role in identifying the channel; so, although they may irritate, they can at least see the point of them. A minority of people (11%) both don’t like them in principle and don’t find them useful .

Attached page capture shows complaints and criticism in the comments section.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2022, 03:29:32 pm »
Quote
Repeat after me until you actually understand this: Hardware 👏 is 👏 not 👏 software. 👏

Sorry to be blunt, but your head is in the sand over this. Already companies like DJI and Boox effectively lend you their hardware, and hardly anyone cares now. And if that doesn't give you pause for thought, just try and buy a John Deere tractor and see how much you own that!
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2022, 04:31:54 pm »
So.. risking to be blamed and insulted again...

Let me get straight ...  there seems to be a free will consent..

That going back to 50/60s years where insanely expensive
costs made rent hardware the single viable option..

back to 21st century (as said above)  decreasing costs...
made hardware a commodity easy to ditch and replace. (not even repair is an issue..)

And so.. the rent-seekers are trying not only increase profit margins..
but also  remove any alternative of ownership or possession so to sustain an infinite rent model easily and cheapest than 50/60s high costs...

Nice.. we should all gave ou r social life and data and free will to huge corporations..

Last question:
- who to blame in the case of insecurity incidents..
- data counterfeit..
-  loss of data and access to vital education and general information..

Now controlled by these half dozen (fill blank) corps?
what you can see can hear can download... 
can even STORE in cloud..  etc...

No thanks. This  back to the future past  sounds BS

Paul
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 04:33:41 pm by PKTKS »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2022, 11:22:36 pm »
Quote
Repeat after me until you actually understand this: Hardware 👏 is 👏 not 👏 software. 👏

Sorry to be blunt, but your head is in the sand over this. Already companies like DJI and Boox effectively lend you their hardware, and hardly anyone cares now. And if that doesn't give you pause for thought, just try and buy a John Deere tractor and see how much you own that!
You're confounding different things.

I don’t know what you’re referring to with DJI and Boox, since I don’t use their products, but they’re clearly selling the hardware. Same with John Deere. The “you bought the hardware but don’t own it” is a legitimate, but unrelated tangent. John Deere isn’t going to hand you over a tractor for a monthly fee with no credit check.

Point is, hardware leasing/rental and software rental aren’t the same thing because hardware and software are fundamentally different. Claiming otherwise is dishonest. So stop being dishonest.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2022, 11:31:24 pm »
Quote
So stop being dishonest

I am not being dishonest and not trying to be. I resent you insinuating that I am doing that - you are basically calling me a liar, and I would like you to retract that slur.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2022, 11:40:18 pm »
Then stop claiming over and over again that because the software industry has shifted more and more towards the subscription model, that this applies to hardware, too.

There is a real cost to every unit made for hardware. Software can be replicated for costs so low that we can consider it free.

Refusing to acknowledge this fact, and the ramifications it has on leasing/rental, is either intellectual dishonesty or just plain stupidity.
 

Offline eti

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2022, 11:42:22 pm »
The bs that people read and believe. 😂

Wake up. This is baseless speculation and RUMOUR. HELLO?
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2022, 12:21:12 pm »
Tooki, it's clear that you didn't grasp the point I was trying to make, whether that's because your are fixated on your point of view or  because I didn't explain it well enough. A reasonable person would ask for a better explanation.

Instead, Tooki, you metaphorically stuck your fingers in your ears and created this "hardware same as software" strawman which you attributed falsely to me[1]. Then used that as the basis for an ad hominem attack.

So, I politely ask you once again to withdraw the slur, the false accusation,  which is entirely based on something you've made up.

---
[1] I have NOT said that hardware is the same as software. Where I have referenced software it has been to illustrate attitudes to the subscription model, that's all.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2022, 12:29:16 pm »
The bs that people read and believe. 😂

Wake up. This is baseless speculation and RUMOUR. HELLO?

Hey, how's the hangover?

Maybe you don't recall my previous response to your diatribe last night, but this bit you agreed with (until you withdrew your posts):

Quote
Never had a 'what if' opinion piece cause you to think about something you hadn't considered previously? We know that Apple hasn't announced this, but the question is: could they, or even might they? Well, we know your answer so there's no reason for you to stick around and you can leave it to the rest of us to do whatever the hell we like, thanks.

 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2022, 12:38:45 pm »
So "now accepted as normal" - not proven in my opinion.

I have seen that argument used before.

Normally I expect, yes or no but I have seen "accepting them" in there and sometimes "don't know" but then I expect the facts to be explained clearly before making a yes or no.

I've read that about seven times now, and I still don't know what you're trying to say. Perhaps a rephrase is in order?
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 


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