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Were you ever forced into a monthly subscription?

Yes
6 (27.3%)
No
16 (72.7%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Author Topic: Apple hardware subscription as a service  (Read 10243 times)

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Online MT

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #75 on: March 31, 2022, 02:51:14 pm »
Twenty years ago no consumers leased their cars, it was purely a business phenomenon, nowadays it's a common practice for consumers - one of the forum members was talking just last week about handing his privately leased BMW i3 back to the leasing company. Consumers used to buy their own copies of Photoshop (well, the honest ones did), now they rent it from Adobe. We've already established that many consumers already lease their phones and have done for years. Many, many millions of people used to rent their televisions, or buy them on hire purchase, which is just another variation on a lease.

In 2002 people "did" lease cars. BMW are nothing more then pieces of plastic crap particularly the 3 series! Anyone who puts in plastic pieces inside the engine is all Schwabians: You own nothing
and you will be happy! Recently even GRETA figured out now shes been had behind the curtain. Back in the 80 and 90ies all high end software was on per rented model, the "paying for a temporary seat"
at the table of famous Cadence and Mentor crap thing you know. Leasing puts the leaser in total enslavement to the owner of the leasing company (WEF) you are being "owned". Want to lease your
soldering iron? Your pants? Good riddance then.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2022, 02:58:37 pm by MT »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #76 on: March 31, 2022, 04:49:00 pm »
Tooki, it's clear that you didn't grasp the point I was trying to make, whether that's because your are fixated on your point of view or  because I didn't explain it well enough. A reasonable person would ask for a better explanation.

Instead, Tooki, you metaphorically stuck your fingers in your ears and created this "hardware same as software" strawman which you attributed falsely to me[1]. Then used that as the basis for an ad hominem attack.

So, I politely ask you once again to withdraw the slur, the false accusation,  which is entirely based on something you've made up.

---
[1] I have NOT said that hardware is the same as software. Where I have referenced software it has been to illustrate attitudes to the subscription model, that's all.
No, you’ve repeatedly raised software (e.g. Adobe) to illustrate that moving to subscription-only “works”, and that specific issues I raised regarding hardware rental/leasing (the need to somehow protect the value of the hardware asset) didn’t cause issues for Adobe, completely ignoring the key point, which is that software subscriptions do not HAVE an asset to protect!

It definitely wasn’t just about attitudes towards acceptance of the subscription model. The reason I am arguing you about “hardware is not software” is because ALL of your responses to my objections for why going subscription-only is unlikely have been to say “well it worked for the software industry”. You haven’t provided any substantive responses to my objections. (I did not claim anywhere that you said outright “hardware is the same as software”. I’m only saying that you’re acting as if they were.)

Edit: fixed missing closing quote, and added “outright”.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2022, 08:09:33 pm by tooki »
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #77 on: March 31, 2022, 06:55:04 pm »
Quote
(I did not claim anywhere that you said “hardware is the same as software. I’m only saying that you’re acting as if they were.)

Just one example:

Quote
Point is, hardware leasing/rental and software rental aren’t the same thing because hardware and software are fundamentally different. Claiming otherwise is dishonest. So stop being dishonest.

You are explicitly accusing me of being dishonest. I would like you to retract that if it's not what you meant to write.

Seriously, I didn't think you were consciously being malicious but I have to say that if this is a demonstration of your level of debate - using personal attacks in place of considering alternative points of view - I can't imagine why anyone would dare to discuss anything with you. I certainly won't, now.
 

Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #78 on: March 31, 2022, 10:46:16 pm »
So "now accepted as normal" - not proven in my opinion.

I have seen that argument used before.

Normally I expect, yes or no but I have seen "accepting them" in there and sometimes "don't know" but then I expect the facts to be explained clearly before making a yes or no.

I've read that about seven times now, and I still don't know what you're trying to say. Perhaps a rephrase is in order?

Sorry.
Someone proclaiming that something is accepted as normal and remembering seeing this argument/statement used by the BBC 10 years ago during their research on persistent screen logos/digital on screen graphics and the annoyance they can cause.

Yes/No and sometimes I see "unsure" but *"broadly accepting of them" in the survey research below.
Here is what I was referencing it too:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/aboutthebbc/2011/04/digital-on-screen-graphics-res.shtml
Quote
How do people feel about DOGs?
Despite the fact that they are rarely noticed and their usefulness in identifying the channel, the research did show that the audience have mixed views about DOGs:

around a quarter of all TV viewers hold negative views about DOGs
*a similar proportion (27% ) are broadly accepting of them
around half of do not have consistently strong views either ways
The research also shows that even amongst those who dislike DOGs, many still agree (4 in 10) that they play a helpful role in identifying the channel; so, although they may irritate, they can at least see the point of them. A minority of people (11%) both don’t like them in principle and don’t find them useful



« Last Edit: March 31, 2022, 10:48:00 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #79 on: April 03, 2022, 08:15:05 pm »
Quote
(I did not claim anywhere that you said “hardware is the same as software. I’m only saying that you’re acting as if they were.)

Just one example:

Quote
Point is, hardware leasing/rental and software rental aren’t the same thing because hardware and software are fundamentally different. Claiming otherwise is dishonest. So stop being dishonest.

You are explicitly accusing me of being dishonest. I would like you to retract that if it's not what you meant to write.

Seriously, I didn't think you were consciously being malicious but I have to say that if this is a demonstration of your level of debate - using personal attacks in place of considering alternative points of view - I can't imagine why anyone would dare to discuss anything with you. I certainly won't, now.
Sorry, I did word it poorly. I’ve changed it slightly in that post (with edit notes for full disclosure).

My assertion, behind which I continue to stand, is that it is dishonest to argue based on the premise that hardware and software are the same (or that hardware and software markets are the same). You’ve consistently done that, coming back to “well the software industry did it” as your only actual argument. Meanwhile, you’ve left numerous other issues, including explicit questions, unanswered.

So can you blame me for getting frustrated with you? :-// I enumerated sundry specific issues with why I think it wouldn’t work, and you’ve only responded with “but the software industry did it!”.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #80 on: April 03, 2022, 08:18:10 pm »
I've read that about seven times now, and I still don't know what you're trying to say. Perhaps a rephrase is in order?

Sorry.
Someone proclaiming that something is accepted as normal and remembering seeing this argument/statement used by the BBC 10 years ago during their research on persistent screen logos/digital on screen graphics and the annoyance they can cause.

Yes/No and sometimes I see "unsure" but *"broadly accepting of them" in the survey research below.
Here is what I was referencing it too:
No offense, but I still can’t make heads or tails of what you’re trying to get across. Your incomplete sentences don’t create a train of thought for the reader.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2022, 09:09:21 pm »
...

Edit: Deleted this post because I realised I was wrong - you really are being malicious and it seems to turn you on. Absolutely no point in trying to engage with you on this or anything else.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2022, 09:39:47 pm by dunkemhigh »
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #82 on: April 03, 2022, 09:17:47 pm »
Yes, but as I pointed out, things have changed a lot and now leasing software is now accepted as normal.

That's an unwarranted assertion. There are a lot of people who point blank refuse to use subscription based software, myself included.

You are not an average example. I won't touch subscription-based software either but I acknowledge that I am also not an average user (really, you need to stop thinking you're the centre of everything and the perfect example for any situation).

I think my assertion stands because you only have to look at how people are accepting of subscriptions, not least all those users that are paying the subscriptions. The purchasers of things like smart doorbells who pay subscriptions to use them. Similarly some CCTV and alarms (honest, I can't fathom how anyone can think that's a good idea, but it is apparently a thing).

You might also care to recall that you are ignoring me.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #83 on: April 03, 2022, 11:28:32 pm »
Yes, but as I pointed out, things have changed a lot and now leasing software is now accepted as normal.

That's an unwarranted assertion. There are a lot of people who point blank refuse to use subscription based software, myself included.

You are not an average example. I won't touch subscription-based software either but I acknowledge that I am also not an average user (really, you need to stop thinking you're the centre of everything and the perfect example for any situation).

I think my assertion stands because you only have to look at how people are accepting of subscriptions, not least all those users that are paying the subscriptions. The purchasers of things like smart doorbells who pay subscriptions to use them. Similarly some CCTV and alarms (honest, I can't fathom how anyone can think that's a good idea, but it is apparently a thing).

You might also care to recall that you are ignoring me.

Thank you for reminding me why there's little point in trying to engage with you like an adult; failure to read what I actually said, unnecessary ad-hominem arguments, and finishing up with a childish dig. How the heck you turn a "me included" as an afterthought into "really, you need to stop thinking you're the centre of everything and the perfect example for any situation" would probably require the services of an expensive alienist to explain.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #84 on: April 04, 2022, 12:25:36 am »
Quote
How the heck you turn a "me included" as an afterthought into "really, you need to stop thinking you're the centre of everything and the perfect example for any situation" would probably require the services of an expensive alienist to explain.

It was irrelevant except to say "I am a counter-example". Which, it has to be said, is very common hereabouts - suggest something and someone will be the edge case that refutes it.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #85 on: April 05, 2022, 05:48:08 pm »
...

Edit: Deleted this post because I realised I was wrong - you really are being malicious and it seems to turn you on. Absolutely no point in trying to engage with you on this or anything else.
No, absolutely no malice here. Just no tolerance for BS.
 

Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Apple hardware subscription as a service
« Reply #86 on: April 05, 2022, 07:05:48 pm »
No offense, but I still can’t make heads or tails of what you’re trying to get across. Your incomplete sentences don’t create a train of thought for the reader.

Okay, I'll try and improve, I was comparing some set of words that "dunkemhigh" said that was once used by the BBC in a controversial topic over 10 years ago.

Sorry I sometimes have problems explaining things.
 
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