Author Topic: Apple removes Mac Pro from sale in the EU after a amendment safety regIEC609501  (Read 9830 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sionyn

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 848
  • Country: gb
electronics safety standard IEC 60950-1 increases requirements around electrical port protection and the fan guards in the system. Apple does not plan to modify their machines and will simply pull them from market in the EU. Apple wishes to warn customers and partners about the change so that they would have sufficient time to order Mac Pro units and meet any needs prior to 1 March, when the amendment comes into effect.

http://www.macworld.co.uk/mac/news/?newsid=3423807

damn ill educated bureaucrats

a injury from the internal of a computer  would require disassembly and powering to up whod injure themselves with the fan if the housing internally was removed ?

who sticks their hands in these fans most are made with cheepo dc brush motors
id bet hurt but serious injury ?
eecs guy
 

Offline Bored@Work

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3932
  • Country: 00
Sounds like "let's look for an excuse so we can start to ramp down production early to cut our losses".

Don't tell me Apple would have any problems to revise one of their products. Don't tell me their engineers have a problem with developing the missing fan guard and increasing the clearance. Especially if they have years of advanced warning. They regularly revise their products - if they thing it pays off.
I delete PMs unread. If you have something to say, say it in public.
For all else: Profile->[Modify Profile]Buddies/Ignore List->Edit Ignore List
 

Online tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4262
  • Country: gb
  • Electron Fiddler, FPGA Hacker, Embedded Systems EE
I'm far from supporting Apple, but seriously?  No one is going to injure themselves on a computer fan. What a stupid regulation.
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4992
  • Country: nl
a injury from the internal of a computer  would require disassembly and powering to up whod injure themselves with the fan if the housing internally was removed ?
The rules only apply to operator access areas ...

I see nothing in the rules on fans which is particularly onerous ... they are from 2009 as well. Apple simply doesn't want to expend any effort any more on the Mac Pro it seems.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 12:52:33 am by Marco »
 

Online NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6866
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
I'm far from supporting Apple, but seriously?  No one is going to injure themselves on a computer fan. What a stupid regulation.
Not sure what fans Apple is using but in a modern high performance PC, it's pretty common to find one that would definitely be dangerous to touch when spinning.

Of course, the new law is as silly as "if I plug in this toaster and turn it on, I can easily touch some red hot live wires."
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Online chickenHeadKnob

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 901
  • Country: ca
  • doofus programus semi-retiredae

Imagine how much safer E.U. residents would be if some organization actually tried to stem the crap flood of non-compliant wall warts and other "chernobyl x5000 house warmer"  products coming from china.
 

Offline Bored@Work

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3932
  • Country: 00

Imagine how much safer E.U. residents would be if some organization actually tried to stem the crap flood of non-compliant wall warts and other "chernobyl x5000 house warmer"  products coming from china.

Like all those providing these alerts http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/dyna/rapex/rapex_archives_en.cfm ?

I delete PMs unread. If you have something to say, say it in public.
For all else: Profile->[Modify Profile]Buddies/Ignore List->Edit Ignore List
 

Offline jancumps

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1250
  • Country: be
  • New Low
...

Like all those providing these alerts http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/dyna/rapex/rapex_archives_en.cfm ?

Even contains a:

Quote
Category: Motor vehicles

Product: Passenger car
 

Offline kripton2035

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1977
  • Country: fr
    • kripton2035 schematics repository
I'm far from supporting Apple, but seriously?  No one is going to injure themselves on a computer fan. What a stupid regulation.
believe me I opened a lot of macpro and you won't get injured by the fans, but really I cutted my fingers and hands many times with some sharp corners of this computer. but never with the fans. really stupid regulation.
by the way, apple has already announced a new macpro model for 2013 and I'm pretty sure they dont want to change the actual model to answer a stupid european law they better stop the sellings they dont sell that much and wait for the new model.
they already did this years ago with their webcam (the iSight) that whas not rosh compliant and they stopped selling it in europe for some months and then never sold a new model because they included webcams in all their newcoming products.

Offline andersm

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1182
  • Country: fi
by the way, apple has already announced a new macpro model for 2013
Tim Cook promised they were "working on something great for later next year", but there's been no details on what he meant, let alone a formal announcement.

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7581
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
but, but , but the fans are INSIDE the machine.. you can't touch them from the outside !

What's next ? desktop fans with an outer and an inner casing ? so just in case you remove the outer casing there is another one to protect you ?  :palm:

Europe should outlaw anything that spins or rotates. It would make life much safer. No more cars, no more machinery to get pulled into, no fans , no bicycles to fall off , no noisy motorbikes ,
Even better :they could outright outlaw any kind of movement. Then they can all sit very still and in a few weeks the whole problem will solve itself and the rest of the world can move on.

What a bunch of morons. Europe is a lost cause.


So what about all those graphics cards makers ? those fans are exposed ... same with all the fans bolted on cpu heatsinks. they are exposed. So all that stuff needs a fan-grille installed so you can't touch it anymore ?
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline Bored@Work

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3932
  • Country: 00
but, but , but the fans are INSIDE the machine.. you can't touch them from the outside !

You can, they are at the backside, covered with a rather strange plastic mesh.

But never let facts get in the way of a rant.

As for the rest, Europe bad, bla bla bla. Like many immigrants you overcompensate your status with extended nationalism and xenophobia.
I delete PMs unread. If you have something to say, say it in public.
For all else: Profile->[Modify Profile]Buddies/Ignore List->Edit Ignore List
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4992
  • Country: nl
By taking advantage of Google and some people's lackluster respect for copyrights you could all just read the rules and point out what's so unreasonable about them ... I for one don't see it.
 

Online Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6806
  • Country: gb
The fans, really, have nothing to do with this. The fact that they provide a handle to remove the side panel instead of a screw has literally everything to do with it.

I am getting sick and tired of the 'use of a tool' regulation..

And for those of you who think computer fans are harmless, I encourage you to stick your finger into a 15000RPM 60mm fan and let me know how much finger it took off.
 

Offline gxti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 507
  • Country: us
And for those of you who think computer fans are harmless, I encourage you to stick your finger into a 15000RPM 60mm fan and let me know how much finger it took off.
I doubt anybody's computer has a 15,000 RPM fan in it unless it's a 1U rackmount server, and that's because they're 40mm and have to go that fast to move enough air.

I got in a fight with a CPU fan once. It liberated some epidermis and hurt like hell but far from causing permanent damage. Case fans just go "thunk" and make you curse a lot.
 

Offline FenderBender

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1118
  • Country: us
    • The Solid State Workshop
I dunno, if you are working on a computer with the fans turned on, you should just acknowledge the fact that you could potentially harm yourself. Not that you really would...but that you could.

It's like me working on my car. I could get my hand caught in the radiator fan, and I'm not going to go suing Ford motor company if I stick my hand in it.
 

Online Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6806
  • Country: gb
And for those of you who think computer fans are harmless, I encourage you to stick your finger into a 15000RPM 60mm fan and let me know how much finger it took off.
I doubt anybody's computer has a 15,000 RPM fan in it unless it's a 1U rackmount server, and that's because they're 40mm and have to go that fast to move enough air.
Tell that to the one which nearly had my finger a couple years ago. It did not come out of a 1U server, it came out of a Pentium 3 workstation.

Quote
I got in a fight with a CPU fan once. It liberated some epidermis and hurt like hell but far from causing permanent damage. Case fans just go "thunk" and make you curse a lot.

Depends on the fan. The ones in a Mac Pro can be quite vicious at full speed.

Let's just clarify something: In order for this to be a problem at all, they ran the numbers and met the legal definition for a fan capable of at least causing pain. It would not surprise me if they exceeded that level.
 

Offline eliocor

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 452
  • Country: it
    • rhodiatoce
Having developed several devices which follow the (and not only) IEC 60950-1 norms, I can say those rules are not stupid at all.
To me the typical rantings and moaning (made by people that have never studied/accessed them) mean only one thing: they have never developed a professional device which MUST be safe in almost every occasion, even the strangest.
If you start to follow the typical IEC/UL/... rules, you'll discover your way of designing devices will be never the same because you will take more care in designing your product.
Do not follow those rules and your product will be not far from come Chinese crap.
 

Offline amyk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7059
To me the typical rantings and moaning (made by people that have never studied/accessed them) mean only one thing: they have never developed a professional device which MUST be safe in almost every occasion, even the strangest.
However, that is not necessary in most cases. Mac Pros are not toys for kids.

We have dozens of computers here with no fan grills (removed for better airflow) and no one has been sticking body parts in them.
 

Offline Tepe

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 571
  • Country: dk
Mac Pros are not toys for kids.
Maybe not, but that doesn't necessarily preclude little kids from getting near them.
ceterum censeo systemd-inem esse delendam
 

Online Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6806
  • Country: gb
Having developed several devices which follow the (and not only) IEC 60950-1 norms, I can say those rules are not stupid at all.
To me the typical rantings and moaning (made by people that have never studied/accessed them) mean only one thing: they have never developed a professional device which MUST be safe in almost every occasion, even the strangest.
If you start to follow the typical IEC/UL/... rules, you'll discover your way of designing devices will be never the same because you will take more care in designing your product.
Do not follow those rules and your product will be not far from come Chinese crap.

It's just unfortunate that the Mac Pro falls afoul of the standard. It will, however, be one of the few which does.
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7581
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
The problems does seem to be inside the case. The rear grille is ok.
The mac met the original statement and the revised one. Its the new addendum 1 that kills it.

Fnny thing is that this is a standard from 2010 that goes in effect march 2013...

http://www.tuv.com/en/greater_china/about_us_cn/regulations_standard_updates/latest_regulations_en/latest_regulation_content_en_118211.html

I managed to find documentation of the changes. The problem with th mac fan is that it is large and heavy enough to fall in a cat iii now. There is no problem with safety from the OUTSIDE. Howevere, there is a problem with it on the inside. This is consideed a user access area. Since this fan is a class iii it needs a grillle on the inside too...
Funny thing is that the same document has a paragraph stating that, if the same area is accessed by a technician then no grille is required.

So if a mac user,that is not a technician, opens the case the fan fails safety. If a techie opens it , it doesn't ...

There is an equation that defines the category.

K= 6e-7 x m x r x r x N x N
Where m is mass in kilograms
R is radius
And N is the rotations per minute of the fan . So its mass times radius squared times rpm squared times 6e-7.

A class i is. (Rpm/1500)+(k/2400).  If that number is less then 1 it is unlikely to cause pain or injury
A class ii is (rpm/2200)+(k/3600). If that number is less then 1 it is likely to cause pain but not injury.
A class 3 is  anything that does not comply tih a i or a ii and thus likely to cause injusry.

A class i is allowed in an operator area. A class ii also but needs a warning label , a class iii needs a different warning label.

They also revised the 'test finger' and it is possible that the external grille now fails.

Fixing this would require a new fan with a new grille and appropriate warning labels.

The other issue is the safety of the ports.  That apparently hinges on the power plug where apple uses their own iec plug. It fails the new pull strenth at hogh temp... Something that is easily solved by usong a different power cord. As for the ports on the front side. That has to do with the current limiters employed.

Its all kinda weird. Im willing to bet that a lot of other co puters will also fail the new specs. Just apple is making this public. They could alter the machine slightly but i think they prefer to wait until later this year when the new models will be introduced.


As for the problem with europe. Everyone there want to do something and it's a bit of a twit race. They all take off in a different direction. To give you an idea of the absurd situation they end up in.
Europe has ratified regulations for emissions from cell towers. Some countries find these don't go far enough so they declare tighter regulations. It goes beyond that. Some cities in some countries declare their own rules... So right now we have a situation in brussels that effectively blocks the deployment of 4g and lte wireless equipment. So here you have the capital of europe and they have to make do with slower wireless networks links than the farmtown nextdoor. Simply because everyone there does his own thing... Lets make a unified europe , but well have the english keep their pound, the danish have their exceptions and lets not put the french and the germans next to each other at the conference table... It will never work right... Not as long as they all pull in the same direction.

By the way ,these new rules are only for a specific group in europe. I believe there are two countries that are exempt from them... ( mandatory eye-roll) . It's a mess..

The new standard also has provisions for exploding cd or dvd disks ... I just found an. Interesting online condensed version :

http://www.slideshare.net/miraclejackhsu/introduce-iec-60950-1-2nd-ed-a1for-client

Go read for yourself
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 07:10:34 am by free_electron »
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline amyk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7059
Howevere, there is a problem with it on the inside. This is consideed a user access area. Since this fan is a class iii it needs a grillle on the inside too...
Funny thing is that the same document has a paragraph stating that, if the same area is accessed by a technician then no grille is required.

So if a mac user,that is not a technician, opens the case the fan fails safety. If a techie opens it , it doesn't ...
And what are the definitions of "technician" and "user access area"? Odd they consider the inside "user access area" when Macs are well known for discouraging user-service...

I just calculated that number for the main CPU fan in the system I'm using right now... 1.02 so it'll likely hurt but not injure (no, I'm not going to test this. :P)
 

Offline T4P

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3706
  • Country: sg
    • T4P
Hmm. I fear for my finger with my AFB1212SHE now. Scary
 

Offline tinhead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1925
  • Country: 00
    • If you like my hacks, send me a donation
Like all those providing these alerts http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/dyna/rapex/rapex_archives_en.cfm ?

unfortunately most of these warning are useless :

>> The product poses a risk of injuries because of the presence of an unattached drawstring with free ends which are too long

seriously, how this can be dangerous ? This is because of EN14682, but well, there is no single word about max length .. it must be simply "not too long for specific age" .. so you can assume some ppl got pissed off, payed a lot of money to block some chinese products ...
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 08:47:37 pm by tinhead »
I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter ...
I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf