Are all Lithium-based batteries doomed to fail in an unsafe manner?

[Halcyon]

As a collector of vintage computers and other tech, I have a bunch of old and obsolete devices, including mobile phones and tablets.

Over the years, I've disposed of batteries which have puffed and what I would deem unsafe to charge or store.

Is it expected that all Lithium batteries will face the same doom, or will some fail "quietly" and just fail to hold a charge, but the devices themselves could otherwise be safely powered from mains power, without much of a fire risk? Is it just the "faulty" ones that puff up?

[AVGresponding]

I think it depends on the failure mode. If the seal failed and the electrolyte slowly leaked, for example, the capacity/cell voltage would just drop drastically, and there'd be no swelling. It's more difficult to see "swelling" in hard-shelled cells as well, making it difficult to assess failure mode without a dissection.

[Siwastaja]

Old li-ion battery failing in a fire-risky way is extremely extremely rare like one in a million. If it wasn't, we would be in a very deep trouble.

Even puffing does not indicate any significant fire risk.

Remember, these have been available since mid-1990's (and absolutely everywhere since about 2005).

[AVGresponding]

Old li-ion battery failing in a fire-risky way is extremely extremely rare like one in a million. If it wasn't, we would be in a very deep trouble.

Even puffing does not indicate any significant fire risk.

Remember, these have been available since mid-1990's (and absolutely everywhere since about 2005).

Most, if not all of the fire risk seems to be from the various methods of "mishandling", eg cell penetration with a foreign object, crush damage, over-charging etc

[Siwastaja]

Old li-ion battery failing in a fire-risky way is extremely extremely rare like one in a million. If it wasn't, we would be in a very deep trouble.

Even puffing does not indicate any significant fire risk.

Remember, these have been available since mid-1990's (and absolutely everywhere since about 2005).

Most, if not all of the fire risk seems to be from the various methods of "mishandling", eg cell penetration with a foreign object, crush damage, over-charging etc

Plus, maybe even more commonly, bad cells. Usually counterfeit or self-imported lowest-tier crap; but in some very rare cases, quality control of decent manufacturers failing (makes big headlines, happens every 5 years or so, leading to large recalls.)

[Whales]

Are we making a distinction between metal-cased LiCo/LiMn and non-metal cased "polymer" batteries?  The latter seem to be doomed to puffing up, the former seem to be very well behaved.

[Siwastaja]

Are we making a distinction between metal-cased LiCo/LiMn and non-metal cased "polymer" batteries?  The latter seem to be doomed to puffing up, the former seem to be very well behaved.

Both are internally the same, and prone to the same gas generation, so it's just matter of visibility of the problem. Puffing is a common failure mode and does not normally lead to fire, and on the other hand, fire incidents happen with non-puffed cells as well.

[tom66]

A puffed battery is not necessarily dangerous.  Especially if its state of charge is low.

I have (out of unjustified levels of curiosity) punctured a Li-Po cell which was reading <2V.  Nothing happened, not even smoke.  It got barely warm.  The cell's impedance is so high, that the cell just instantly discharges.

The problem is when the cell is well-charged, say, at least 40% SoC.  Then it may well have enough energy to bring the temperature up to runaway conditions.

Whilst there is a 'spicy pillow' meme, most puffed Li-Po cells are just failed, and have done so in a manner not conducive to fire.

[Psi]

The vast majorly of lithium battery fires are coming from
-Badly engineered no-name lithium battery brands
-Badly packaged battery packs that are prone to shorting when dropped or from vibration over time.
-Badly designed thermal control for charging/discharging or lack of any thermal detection at all.
-Lack of any fuse links or cell protection
-Counterfeit battery tech or stolen battery tech, where counterfeit batteries are being made according to leaked/stolen plans with little to no understanding or testing of what they are producing. (usually no-name brands)
-Extreme physical damage, more than a typical drop. Like crushing/punchering.

The number of lithium cells not covered by any of the above that randomly catch on fire for no reason is vanishingly small.
So no, i don't think all batteries are doomed i think lots of them will fail in a safe way, just losing capacity.

[voltsandjolts]

At the recycling centre, our local council seems to have no concept of differing battery types. There is one disposal area for batteries, with car batteries at one side side, and then a container (akin to chest freezer) so chock full of batteries you can't shut the lid. It's got alkalines, lithium tool battery packs, lithium metal cells, coin cells, nimh...it's got the lot. Pretty gobsmaking. Didn't stop me adding some pouch cells though, what else do you do? Not surprising you see recycling centre fires in the news.

[Simmed]

At the recycling centre, our local council seems to have no concept of differing battery types. There is one disposal area for batteries, with car batteries at one side side, and then a container (akin to chest freezer) so chock full of batteries you can't shut the lid. It's got alkalines, lithium tool battery packs, lithium metal cells, coin cells, nimh...it's got the lot. Pretty gobsmaking. Didn't stop me adding some pouch cells though, what else do you do? Not surprising you see recycling centre fires in the news.

spot on
like you said, there is a large battery recycling plant fire about 40km from me a few months ago. i think it is the 4th fire this time 

[Siwastaja]

At the recycling centre, our local council seems to have no concept of differing battery types. There is one disposal area for batteries, with car batteries at one side side, and then a container (akin to chest freezer) so chock full of batteries you can't shut the lid. It's got alkalines, lithium tool battery packs, lithium metal cells, coin cells, nimh...it's got the lot. Pretty gobsmaking. Didn't stop me adding some pouch cells though, what else do you do? Not surprising you see recycling centre fires in the news.

spot on
like you said, there is a large battery recycling plant fire about 40km from me a few months ago. i think it is the 4th fire this time 

Recycling plant fires are usual and planned. They get rid of the problematic waste + get insurance money, and of course, save a whole lot all the time in operation costs. All you need is to make sure authorities look the other way. Maybe a little bit of cost of giving free lunches.

There was a "recycling" plant near where I lived (not related to batteries, although I'm 100% sure random batteries were in their endless piles of random junk). No recycling of any kind: huge piles of random mixed waste: construction waste, wood, plastic, cardboard, anything, all mixed together, all exposed to elements. Wind and birds spreading the crap in the vicinity. Interesting microbiological reactions, weird smell that in my opinion resembled of burned popcorn in the perimeter of 2-3 kilometers. Steam rising from the piles during winter. We took walks there with my partner and I said every time this is going to burn soon. We moved away, and it burned. Googling it now, it had history of burning just 4 years earlier. Speculation says maybe there was a battery in the pile. Probably, a few, or many. Not an arson, but intentional by negligence.

The whole thing was operating 100% illegally in a very obvious manner to anyone. No one cared, and never will. This is what we call "world-class cleantech".

(Reference: https://yle-fi.translate.goog/a/3-11345119?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fi&_x_tr_pto=wapp )

[jpanhalt]

In the US, there are regulations on disposal.  I suspect the same exists for most countries.  NiCd are considered hazardous and must be taken to a proper facility.  NiCd's can also runaway and cause fires, but they are becoming quite rare.  Aside from NiCd and lithium (all types),  batteries can be disposed in ordinary trash according to code, but some rubbish haulers will refuse them under the guise of "no batteries."* 

I agree with what's been said about lithium batteries and treat them all with respect.  They go to hazardous waste, and I keep them away from flammables  outside my regular living quarters until disposal.

*Our township contracts with a specific rubbish collection service.  We aren't forced to use that service, but under the township contract, it's a lot cheaper (half the cost).  That company has a flat "no battery " policy.  The problem with that policy is that hazardous waste won't accept non-lithium batteries (it will accept NiCd).  Should "no batteries" really apply to silver oxide hearing aid batteries?  I've brought that matter up at council meetings, and off the record, decided to ignore the rubbish company's policy for them and ordinary alkaline batteries.  My other alternatives are Lake Erie or burying them on the farm.

[SiliconWizard]

Are we making a distinction between metal-cased LiCo/LiMn and non-metal cased "polymer" batteries?  The latter seem to be doomed to puffing up, the former seem to be very well behaved.

Both are internally the same, and prone to the same gas generation, so it's just matter of visibility of the problem. Puffing is a common failure mode and does not normally lead to fire, and on the other hand, fire incidents happen with non-puffed cells as well.

Yes, the puffing is just the result of the accumulation of gas. If this happens when the battery is almost entirely discharged, the risk is very low. This is mostly CO2 and hydrogen. The quantity of hydrogen in a small battery will not be enough to cause a fire if the battery is punctured, again when it's discharged, which is the case when you run into a puffed up battery that's been stored for a long time.

There may be a small amount of hydrogen fluoride, which is very toxic, but unless the battery has been exposed to fire, this amount should also be very low. In case of fire though, the fumes are very toxic.

So in practice, the concern is more if the battery inflates while it's being charged, and of course, if it's exposed to fire even if it doesn't catch fire on its own.

[Analog Kid]

At the recycling centre, our local council seems to have no concept of differing battery types. There is one disposal area for batteries, with car batteries at one side side, and then a container (akin to chest freezer) so chock full of batteries you can't shut the lid. It's got alkalines, lithium tool battery packs, lithium metal cells, coin cells, nimh...it's got the lot. Pretty gobsmaking. Didn't stop me adding some pouch cells though, what else do you do? Not surprising you see recycling centre fires in the news.

And regarding that big bin into which people toss their small batteries, let me guess:
Lots of lithium coin cells (2032, etc.) that are bare without any tape on them, right?

Somewhere elsewhere on this site I posted the story about the fire in the hardware store I worked in that was caused by a tub full of these batteries we collected from customers that were not taped.

It nearly burned the damn store down. After that we were careful to tape each and every lithium coin cell.

[amyk]

Discharged batteries cannot cause a fire, just like a bottle of gasoline won't catch fire by itself. They can fuel one, but there has to be some energy to cause the ignition in the first place.

I suspect the reason for the recycling fires is because someone has unknowingly thrown charged ones into the pile.

[Analog Kid]

Discharged batteries cannot cause a fire, just like a bottle of gasoline won't catch fire by itself. They can fuel one, but there has to be some energy to cause the ignition in the first place.

I suspect the reason for the recycling fires is because someone has unknowingly thrown charged ones into the pile.

Well, yeah, ya think?

I changed tons of customer's batteries in their car remotes in that store. I ended up with a huge collection of 2032 cells, most of which registered pretty close to 3 volts and were quite usable. So most of them were definitely not discharged.

[ledtester]

The Lumafield Battery Quality Report might be relevant here.

The report is the culmination of performing CT scans of over 1000 18650 cells.

A major finding of the report is that a lot of the low cost/counterfeit cells had "cathode overhang" - a defect that significantly increases risk of short-circuiting and catastrophic failure.

- Previous EEVblog thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/lumafield-18650-report/

- Lumafield Report: https://www.lumafield.com/battery-report

- Adam Savage interview with the Lumafield engineers: https://youtu.be/-Y23nfAOiXQ

You can view pictures from the report starting at around 6:40 in the video.

[Halcyon]

Discharged batteries cannot cause a fire, just like a bottle of gasoline won't catch fire by itself. They can fuel one, but there has to be some energy to cause the ignition in the first place.

I suspect the reason for the recycling fires is because someone has unknowingly thrown charged ones into the pile.

I'm sure there are plenty of batteries that get thrown in there that can't be discharged by the consumer. Perhaps the power tool it belongs to is broken, or the device is no longer available etc...

I'm actually shocked that they don't place those bins outside. The ones they have here are huge (like the size of a wheelie bin) and the last time I went to the supermarket, it was filled to the brim. I literally couldn't fit a single thing in it.

[Psi]

Discharged batteries cannot cause a fire, just like a bottle of gasoline won't catch fire by itself. They can fuel one, but there has to be some energy to cause the ignition in the first place.

I think you have that backwards, a discharged battery can't fuel a fire, but it can cause one.
Even discharged it can create a small spark that sets fire to some nearby papers, but it's not going to shoot jets of flames and set fire to a tire or plastics.

I suspect the reason for the recycling fires is because someone has unknowingly thrown charged ones into the pile.

I think its probably more that the truck is full of papers and things that are easy to light, so i'd expect even discharged cells to be an issue. Obviously less of an issue than jets of flames from a charged one, but still. It doesnt take much to set fire to all the scrunched up paper towels and other paper stuff in the general rubbish and recycling is even worse if you live somewhere that puts general paper and cardboard in the recycling bin.

[Siwastaja]

Discharged batteries cannot cause a fire, just like a bottle of gasoline won't catch fire by itself. They can fuel one, but there has to be some energy to cause the ignition in the first place.

I think you have that backwards, a discharged battery can't fuel a fire, but it can cause one.

Neither way is completely true, but maybe amyk has a better point: if it's really discharged "all the way", thermal energy released from accidentally shorting it fully (and discharging down to 0V) is small enough it is unlikely to set anything on fire, including thermally running away itself. It is of course possible, but very unlikely. But even an empty li-ion cell can still thermally run away from external heat, and it still contains flammable electrolyte, that still can shoot out with pressure. I guess this is what amyk is saying.

But real world is a bitch with coming up with weird corner cases and combinations of event.

[Psi]

If it has been pulled down to 0V then its over-discharged.
Discharged is just ~3V or so

But yes, if you over-discharge it then it should be pretty safe

[AVGresponding]

This is fairly interesting. One thing not mentioned though is that manufacturing tolerances become more problematic, the smaller the cell (or if they did mention it, I missed it):

[Andy Chee]

At the recycling centre, our local council seems to have no concept of differing battery types.

Separating lead-acid car batteries makes obvious sense, due to their ease of component material separation and recovery.

The rest of the batteries get lumped into one bin, the sorting happens at the main battery recycling facility, not the local waste centre. 

The only responsibility the waste centre has is to maintain safe fire distance.