Author Topic: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.  (Read 4436 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #75 on: May 28, 2020, 06:49:50 am »
TV and youtube are garbage for teaching you anything

So the entire set of MIT lectures available on Youtube, not to mention the countless other tutorial videos on Youtube don't teach you anything? The exact same lectures that get you an engineering degree from MIT are useless?
Really?

I can watch Mario Andretti videos on race car driving and will that make me "learn" to be a great driver?
I can watch videos on climbing Mt. Everest and will that make me "learn" to be a great climber?

Watching MIT/Youtube/TED talks and lectures etc., soaking up content - it's not the learning process. Giving someone answers, doing all the thinking and work for them- does not teach. This is just my opinion. The homework, the thinking, the lab assignments, are where and when the learning takes place.

Sure, but you mad the specific claim that "TV and youtube are garbage for teaching you anything". The problem with making general statements like that is that you only have the find one example to prove you wrong.
Let me give you a better example. Let's say you want to learn how to tie a knot, or fold a paper airplane, or some other such manual dexterity thing like say doing a stakeboard trick. What is better, a textbook instruction with 2D diagrams, or someone physically spending a minute actually showing you "live"?
You can guarantee there are countless example that will demonstrably prove you wrong.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #76 on: May 28, 2020, 06:54:11 am »
I can watch Mario Andretti videos on race car driving and will that make me "learn" to be a great driver?
I can watch videos on climbing Mt. Everest and will that make me "learn" to be a great climber?

Watching MIT/Youtube/TED talks and lectures etc., soaking up content - it's not the learning process. Giving someone answers, doing all the thinking and work for them- does not teach. This is just my opinion. The homework, the thinking, the lab assignments, are where and when the learning takes place.

I ripped apart a computing science instructor in class, for pissing around with pointers in C for two weeks. Such a waste of time. I demanded a refund for the course tuition fee. His response to me? "The purpose of university is not to teach you anything, the purpose of university to show you how to learn"  :palm:

He's not wrong. Much of the specifics you learn in college will be obsolete by the time you're 10 years into your career, you may well find yourself in a job that your degree doesn't even apply to, but having been through the process you'll be equipped with the ability to learn what you need as you go along.

Watching a video of race car driving or mountain climbing can teach you the basics, it gives you the information you need, then the rest of the process is using that information to practice actually doing it.

It sounds like you're a bit impatient and want to just skip the information and cut to the chase, maybe that works for you but in most cases it leads to glaring gaps in one's knowledge. So yeah, you're not going to become a champion race driver by watching a bunch of videos, but you're not likely to do so by just jumping into a race car and hitting the track either. This is why nearly any training consists of study followed by hands on activities.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #77 on: May 28, 2020, 07:04:59 am »
Sure, but you mad the specific claim that "TV and youtube are garbage for teaching you anything". The problem with making general statements like that is that you only have the find one example to prove you wrong.
Let me give you a better example. Let's say you want to learn how to tie a knot, or fold a paper airplane, or some other such manual dexterity thing like say doing a stakeboard trick. What is better, a textbook instruction with 2D diagrams, or someone physically spending a minute actually showing you "live"?
You can guarantee there are countless example that will demonstrably prove you wrong.

I can say with certainty that youtube has been a lifesaver for my mom. Normally I'm her IT guy, handyman, car mechanic, etc, she's intelligent but completely helpless with technology. I live close by so any time something isn't working she calls me and usually I drop by and take care of it. Now due to the Covid quarantine I have limited my visits to emergencies like when her refrigerator crapped out where I couldn't possibly have talked her through diagnosing the failed starter on the compressor however I've been really impressed at the other things she has managed on her own. By watching youtube videos she has been able to figure out how to fix all sorts of little stuff, set up video conferencing to continue tutoring sessions with her students, set up an ipad someone gave her and get it connected to the WiFi, get the printer going when it stopped responding, install and configure things on her Ubuntu laptop, all sorts of stuff that normally would have meant a house call she has figured out on her own after watching youtube videos.

I've also found youtube invaluable on numerous occasions myself, particularly when I've been working on my car and am not sure how to get something apart, I really hate it when I find the hidden clip or screw by breaking it off when there's a simple procedure that takes just a few minutes to see in a video. It has also been handy for seeing carpentry techniques and other home repair tips and tricks, I'm capable of figuring out most of that stuff on my own but it sure is nice to have access to countless videos demonstrating how the pros do it. For a lot of things I'd rather read a set of instructions but there are many situations where a 5 minute video showing someone actually doing something can make something clearer than thousands of words.

Then there's the eevblog videos that got me to this forum in the first place, I learned all sorts of stuff from those. Occasionally it was something new, often it was something I was familiar with but not in depth and I walked away with a much deeper and more clear understanding of the subject.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 07:06:56 am by james_s »
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #78 on: May 28, 2020, 07:39:26 am »
Sure, but you mad the specific claim that "TV and youtube are garbage for teaching you anything". The problem with making general statements like that is that you only have the find one example to prove you wrong.
Let me give you a better example. Let's say you want to learn how to tie a knot, or fold a paper airplane, or some other such manual dexterity thing like say doing a stakeboard trick. What is better, a textbook instruction with 2D diagrams, or someone physically spending a minute actually showing you "live"?
You can guarantee there are countless example that will demonstrably prove you wrong.

I can say with certainty that youtube has been a lifesaver for my mom.

Another example from one of my videos, my most popular one, the opamps basics video, 50min long.
The number of people who have contacted me thanking me for the video and how they now understand opamps better than any teacher or textbook ever taught them has been incalculable.
Sure, it's not every for everyone, but for countless people (possibly 1M+ people) it's been what they wanted and they learned something.
Everyone learns differently, and whether it was my approach and video style, or a combination of things, what I'm pretty certain of is that it would have been more effective than the exact same material presented in a boring PDF. Don't underestimate the role of the enthusiasm of the host etc when presenting information. This is as true on Youtube as it was in the days of live public lectures.
For many people the key to learning is to be engaged by someone enthusiastic about it and essentially presenting it in an entertaining style.
 
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Offline Someone

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #79 on: May 28, 2020, 07:53:13 am »
Youtube has sucked up content producers because it was paying the best, simple as that.
Youtube existed for 6-7 years before anyone really made a cent from it. No shortage of creators then, in fact the entire platform was build by these creators earning nothing.
Creators like me started because we wanted to share information and make a name for themselves doing so. For me personally, it was an extension of doing the same thing in print form with my magazine project articles and then my web site.
I've been around long enough to know that, and was there in the days of easy monetisation. Youtube aggressively built a monopoly by attracting the best content away from competing platforms with a simply better deal. Now with little competition the rates for content are too low to support building an income around it. Why that changed is multifaceted and not any single force.

You've shared quite some detail on the economics for yourself, and why other platforms don't work.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #80 on: May 28, 2020, 08:01:38 am »
Youtube has sucked up content producers because it was paying the best, simple as that.
Youtube existed for 6-7 years before anyone really made a cent from it. No shortage of creators then, in fact the entire platform was build by these creators earning nothing.
Creators like me started because we wanted to share information and make a name for themselves doing so. For me personally, it was an extension of doing the same thing in print form with my magazine project articles and then my web site.
I've been around long enough to know that, and was there in the days of easy monetisation. Youtube aggressively built a monopoly by attracting the best content away from competing platforms with a simply better deal. Now with little competition the rates for content are too low to support building an income around it. Why that changed is multifaceted and not any single force.
You've shared quite some detail on the economics for yourself, and why other platforms don't work.

Err, no, they didn't. They created an entirely new platform where you could Broadcast Yourself. Most creators didn't come from "competing platforms", they simply saw a cool new way to express yourself so they decided to do it for fun. Remember, all the early Youtubers didn't earn a cent, and didn't even know there was a future making money on the platform, they just did it for fun.
There was never any competition for Youtube.

You are completely wrong on the monetisation. Except for certain demographics like political or social justice type channels, and kids channels, revenue has never dropped. In fact you used to have to wait to be invited into the partner program to earn money, now it's instant from day one.
The reason for as you say "rates for content are too low to support building an income around it." is because of the massive expansion of platform itself and the number of people joining.
I've done a video on this and how my channel has grown continuously for a decade, non-stop, yet my channel ranking has dropped because of natural platform expansion.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #81 on: May 28, 2020, 08:02:02 am »
"cranky scrooges" vs low post count demanders. There is an endless supply of eager/optimistic young people who will answer questions feeling like they are contributing. This group strongly overlaps with those with little to no real experience or ability (Dunning–Kruger etc). If left to run you end up with a forum full of questions and rubbish answers, which encourages more of the same behaviour.
Those are predicates that can be attributed by anyone to everyone. All it needs is the feeling of superiority. So ... we close the forum because "you should read that up by yourself" is the proper answer to all questions? Of course not, because referring literature, leading to the proper search terms, sources and such is also an important part of conversation. To understand that all you need to remember is that it took you time, effort of teachers/instructors, the need to solve problems to learn things too.
When the value to experienced people sharing interesting knowledge is gone, they leave too. So you're left with just the low rent material easily answerable with some basic research. Different people will value their time differently, at some point wading through the constant flow of content no longer becomes worth the effort. As experienced people leave its a positive feedback that increases the noise over time if not managed.

There are boards I avoid on this forum, some that are outside my area of interests/knowledge, but some that are full of inane and repetitive questions.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #82 on: May 28, 2020, 08:33:14 am »
Youtube has sucked up content producers because it was paying the best, simple as that.
Youtube existed for 6-7 years before anyone really made a cent from it. No shortage of creators then, in fact the entire platform was build by these creators earning nothing.
Creators like me started because we wanted to share information and make a name for themselves doing so. For me personally, it was an extension of doing the same thing in print form with my magazine project articles and then my web site.
I've been around long enough to know that, and was there in the days of easy monetisation. Youtube aggressively built a monopoly by attracting the best content away from competing platforms with a simply better deal. Now with little competition the rates for content are too low to support building an income around it. Why that changed is multifaceted and not any single force.
You've shared quite some detail on the economics for yourself, and why other platforms don't work.

Err, no, they didn't. They created an entirely new platform where you could Broadcast Yourself. Most creators didn't come from "competing platforms", they simply saw a cool new way to express yourself so they decided to do it for fun. Remember, all the early Youtubers didn't earn a cent, and didn't even know there was a future making money on the platform, they just did it for fun.
There was never any competition for Youtube.

You are completely wrong on the monetisation. Except for certain demographics like political or social justice type channels, and kids channels, revenue has never dropped. In fact you used to have to wait to be invited into the partner program to earn money, now it's instant from day one.
The reason for as you say "rates for content are too low to support building an income around it." is because of the massive expansion of platform itself and the number of people joining.
I've done a video on this and how my channel has grown continuously for a decade, non-stop, yet my channel ranking has dropped because of natural platform expansion.
You come with it from your (quite unusual) perspective, and plainly incorrect claims. Right now youtube is not allowing monetising of every account right off the bat:


These things are constantly in flux and the rules change all the time.

Payment rates are all over the place, your experiences are not typical of most content producers. Even if you maintained CPM rates that isn't true of others (or new entrants, or the majority). As an established and volume content supplier you are seeing quite different mechanisms than "regular" smaller channels.

There were (and still are) many different video platforms with a range of different monetisation methods, youtube was never the only choice. There has been continuous competition of those platforms to retain content producers.

Lols for putting up a video response.... right back to the discussion of trying to push chunks of off topic content rather than taking the time to present the relevant bit.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 08:34:47 am by Someone »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #83 on: May 28, 2020, 09:11:20 am »
You come with it from your (quite unusual) perspective, and plainly incorrect claims. Right now youtube is not allowing monetising of every account right off the bat:


These things are constantly in flux and the rules change all the time.

Forgot about that, that's very recent, but the threshold is still very low, way lower than it used to 7+ years back when it wasn't automatic, you had to be invited.

Quote
Payment rates are all over the place

That's always been the case, nothing has changed.

Quote
your experiences are not typical of most content producers. Even if you maintained CPM rates that isn't true of others (or new entrants, or the majority). As an established and volume content supplier you are seeing quite different mechanisms than "regular" smaller channels.

No, I'm not. Smaller content producers making the same content can expect similar CPM rates to me. It's not profitable, not because of what you claim, that monetisation has dropped, it's because of what I said that the market and competition is vastly bigger now, and that's not Youtube's fault, it's natural growth.

Quote
There were (and still are) many different video platforms with a range of different monetisation methods, youtube was never the only choice. There has been continuous competition of those platforms to retain content producers.

No, there hasn't for all practical purposes Youtube have retained a 99% monopoly since they started.
That has changed in the last couple of years with Twitch for live streaming.

I'm done discussing this.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #84 on: May 28, 2020, 09:40:25 am »
There were (and still are) many different video platforms with a range of different monetisation methods, youtube was never the only choice. There has been continuous competition of those platforms to retain content producers.
No, there hasn't for all practical purposes Youtube have retained a 99% monopoly since they started.
That has changed in the last couple of years with Twitch for live streaming.
Pure hyperbole, 3rd party firms put youtube around the 70% share range (when excluding adult content). For a language neutral basis that share may be even lower.
 

Online Elasia

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #85 on: May 28, 2020, 09:55:10 am »
Sure, but you mad the specific claim that "TV and youtube are garbage for teaching you anything". The problem with making general statements like that is that you only have the find one example to prove you wrong.
Let me give you a better example. Let's say you want to learn how to tie a knot, or fold a paper airplane, or some other such manual dexterity thing like say doing a stakeboard trick. What is better, a textbook instruction with 2D diagrams, or someone physically spending a minute actually showing you "live"?
You can guarantee there are countless example that will demonstrably prove you wrong.

I can say with certainty that youtube has been a lifesaver for my mom.

Another example from one of my videos, my most popular one, the opamps basics video, 50min long.
The number of people who have contacted me thanking me for the video and how they now understand opamps better than any teacher or textbook ever taught them has been incalculable.
Sure, it's not every for everyone, but for countless people (possibly 1M+ people) it's been what they wanted and they learned something.
Everyone learns differently, and whether it was my approach and video style, or a combination of things, what I'm pretty certain of is that it would have been more effective than the exact same material presented in a boring PDF. Don't underestimate the role of the enthusiasm of the host etc when presenting information. This is as true on Youtube as it was in the days of live public lectures.
For many people the key to learning is to be engaged by someone enthusiastic about it and essentially presenting it in an entertaining style.

+1 for this...  thanks Dave... this or one like it was how i found you as well like a decade ago lol

I like your videos.. easy refresher content and yeah that opamps video is probly the best explanation of them i've ever seen.. I still send people to go watch it to this day
 

Online Elasia

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #86 on: May 28, 2020, 10:03:43 am »
These things are constantly in flux and the rules change all the time.

Payment rates are all over the place, your experiences are not typical of most content producers. Even if you maintained CPM rates that isn't true of others (or new entrants, or the majority). As an established and volume content supplier you are seeing quite different mechanisms than "regular" smaller channels.

There were (and still are) many different video platforms with a range of different monetisation methods, youtube was never the only choice. There has been continuous competition of those platforms to retain content producers.

Lols for putting up a video response.... right back to the discussion of trying to push chunks of off topic content rather than taking the time to present the relevant bit.

Not wrong about that...  this actually goes back further than this, my own company got bought by doubleclick which then became google adsense when google bought them.. I've had the pleasure to watch monetization of the internet from the get go and google has been all over the place.  Thing is they adjust rapidly depending on market conditions.. no more no less and thats how they survive / dominate
 

Offline engrguy42

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #87 on: May 28, 2020, 10:16:54 am »
And now you're even liable for huge fines if your guess on what constitutes offensive is wrong.

Err, no, how so exactly would that happen?

COPPA
- The best engineers know enough to realize they don't know nuthin'...
- Those who agree with you can do no wrong. Those who disagree can do no right.
- I'm always amazed at how many people "already knew that" after you explain it to them in detail...
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #88 on: May 28, 2020, 01:44:10 pm »
And now you're even liable for huge fines if your guess on what constitutes offensive is wrong.
Err, no, how so exactly would that happen?
COPPA

Forgot about that, but it's essentially going to be a nothing-burger. Not something an individual creator has to worry about in practice in terms of a fines. And certainly not anyone who's not a US citizen.
What it has destroyed entire genres of content creation like kids content.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 01:49:57 pm by EEVblog »
 

Online HobGoblyn

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #89 on: May 28, 2020, 06:08:15 pm »
Sure, but you mad the specific claim that "TV and youtube are garbage for teaching you anything". The problem with making general statements like that is that you only have the find one example to prove you wrong.
Let me give you a better example. Let's say you want to learn how to tie a knot, or fold a paper airplane, or some other such manual dexterity thing like say doing a stakeboard trick. What is better, a textbook instruction with 2D diagrams, or someone physically spending a minute actually showing you "live"?
You can guarantee there are countless example that will demonstrably prove you wrong.

I can say with certainty that youtube has been a lifesaver for my mom.

Another example from one of my videos, my most popular one, the opamps basics video, 50min long.
The number of people who have contacted me thanking me for the video and how they now understand opamps better than any teacher or textbook ever taught them has been incalculable.
Sure, it's not every for everyone, but for countless people (possibly 1M+ people) it's been what they wanted and they learned something.
Everyone learns differently, and whether it was my approach and video style, or a combination of things, what I'm pretty certain of is that it would have been more effective than the exact same material presented in a boring PDF. Don't underestimate the role of the enthusiasm of the host etc when presenting information. This is as true on Youtube as it was in the days of live public lectures.
For many people the key to learning is to be engaged by someone enthusiastic about it and essentially presenting it in an entertaining style.

I’ve learnt a ton of stuff from your vids (and a few other people’s) Even watching your vids that are too advanced for me, the way you present things are very easy on the eye and very watchable, and more than once as I’ve learnt something else, I’ve rewatched a vid that was too advanced , and it’s all clicked into place.

I was a bit of an idiot at school (70s and 80s), in that I was more interested in messing around than learning. Algebra is one area I didn’t bother studying, and YouTube has been brilliant in teaching me what I missed.

Sure there’s a ton of crap on YouTube but there’s also a ton of very very useful educational content.
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #90 on: May 29, 2020, 12:40:18 am »
I have no idea who Keith Appleton is, but AvE is hardly an example of good concise information.
My entire point is that trying to convey too much information via a video is futile!  The bulk should be in some random-access medium, and the few key points, insights, experiences, or other stuff that maybe gets lost in the sea in the random-access medium, highlighted in a video.

Putting all the necessary points into a video makes for a bad video.  Good videos are stories, logs, key insights, et cetera.

I like your videos.  You yourself very often mention "but that's for another time" because you are fully aware of how little complex, dense information you can put in a video and still keep it watchable.  You often highlight the things people get wrong, because they do not truly understand the subject.  That is excellent, and your videos are important.

Keith Appleton runs mainsteam.co.uk, and makes videos about miniature steam engines, typically less than ten minutes long.  He doesn't curse, but grumbles about idiotic comments and keeps a (plastic) skeleton in his acid bath (actually just descaler).  He calls his videos tutorials, but they are closer to something like examples and highlights, that are useful for other hobbyists learning machining or making miniature steam engines on their own.  If you look for his videos for machining tutorials, you'll be mislead, because as he himself says, he is a musician with a calibrated eye, not an engineer.  But for working with or machining miniature steam engines, they contain practical experience that you just can't read from a book.  It is like shop talk with a seasoned greybeard.

What I call a tutorial is a complete package of information encapsulating the basics of some subject.

I seriously dislike the idea of pointing people to only Youtube videos for tutorials, because all the necessary information is not there.

As I've mentioned, there is a lot of videos that support those learning some thing, subject or art.  But as the sole (or even main) source of information, they are insufficient.  If you put all relevant and necessary information in it, it will be dull and/or too long.  Humans cannot acquire new knowledge very efficiently that way.

The reason I keep :horse: is not that I want the final word on this.  It is because the amount of information available to us is orders of magnitude larger than any human can acquire in their lifetime, and it is increasingly important to help others learn efficiently and sufficiently, instead of just enough to fake it.  Pointing others to a good Youtube video explaining the typical misconceptions or traps for young players is excellent, but such videos alone do not suffice as the key source of information.

The real trap here is related to the Dunning-Kruger effect: when you watch those videos where the "uninteresting details" and background information are omitted, one easily starts to believe they know the subject.

In the past before the Internet, people were more aware of the difference between "book knowledge" and "practical knowledge".  (Though, a lot of people believed that if they read a book on something, they knew that subject.)  Nowadays, "TV knowledge" is even worse, and very, very common.  People see something on TV or Youtube, and they believe they know the subject.  Here in Finland, you don't have Miranda rights, or a right to a phone call when arrested, yet those are exactly what the crimiyoungsters always shout about, because they've seen it on TV so it must be true... I'd hate a version of that to happen with technical information and Youtube too.  :scared:
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #91 on: May 29, 2020, 02:10:31 am »
I still don't think much of youtube beyond entertainment.
youtube doesn't vet or check credentials, so you have tons of non-qualified people giving instructions and explanations. Medical advice, unsafe advice etc.

If video educating truly was effective, it would obsolete the classroom and lectures. We'll see this fall, as there may be no school this september due to coronavirus. Imagine paying to go to university but you're at home watching lectures. If you had more money, you could buy the Harvard or Princeton engineering lectures and be really smart. Uni's are worried about enrollment this fall session because people want to go to school and not watch TV.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #92 on: May 29, 2020, 05:02:31 am »
Another example from one of my videos, my most popular one, the opamps basics video, 50min long.
The number of people who have contacted me thanking me for the video and how they now understand opamps better than any teacher or textbook ever taught them has been incalculable.
Sure, it's not every for everyone, but for countless people (possibly 1M+ people) it's been what they wanted and they learned something.

That's one in particular that comes to mind. I'd used op-amps successfully for years before seeing that video, but everything was a lot clearer afterward.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #93 on: May 29, 2020, 05:12:29 am »
If video educating truly was effective, it would obsolete the classroom and lectures. We'll see this fall, as there may be no school this september due to coronavirus. Imagine paying to go to university but you're at home watching lectures. If you had more money, you could buy the Harvard or Princeton engineering lectures and be really smart. Uni's are worried about enrollment this fall session because people want to go to school and not watch TV.

Bullshit. Cars are effective for transportation but they have not obsoleted bicycles or buses. Apartments are perfectly suitable for living in but they have not obsoleted houses.

The fact that something is not a 100% be-all replacement for something doesn't mean it's not effective or lacks value. Getting a complete education from nothing but youtube videos is likely to be challenging under the most ideal of circumstances, but that doesn't mean they are not an effective teaching medium.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 05:23:25 am by james_s »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #94 on: May 29, 2020, 05:20:23 am »
I have no idea who Keith Appleton is, but AvE is hardly an example of good concise information.
My entire point is that trying to convey too much information via a video is futile!  The bulk should be in some random-access medium, and the few key points, insights, experiences, or other stuff that maybe gets lost in the sea in the random-access medium, highlighted in a video.
Putting all the necessary points into a video makes for a bad video.  Good videos are stories, logs, key insights, et cetera.

You can't just make an absolute claim that a "good" educational video is blah blah. People learn in different ways.
Just like there is no one perfect electronics text book, what works for one person does not work for another. Videos are no different.

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I'd hate a version of that to happen with technical information and Youtube too.  :scared:

There is a way to help fix that, make your own content. Send us a link when you have your first video up. Seriously.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #95 on: May 29, 2020, 01:58:54 pm »
Pity you are '100%' wrong, after hitting 'Enter' before seeing my response.

Oh, I should have chosen another time to post far away from your posts to prevent accidentally triggering someone and the gang. My sincere apology.

Maybe it is a cultural difference but this Thread so far is the furthest from a heated debate until you joined in with that nonsense. However having had the honor reading previous posts of yours on life and how to live it before I fear it is more due to your bitter personality.  :-//  :-+ Or Maybe I underestimate how much to a CCP Drone any disagreement between adults must seem like a heated Debate.

??????  What the hell happened since my obviously trouble instigating but loving mantra, about...
Love & Sharing knowledge ???  There seems to be a big 'gap' with a bunch of responses????  :palm:
Oh, yes.. I think I remember now!!
I'm only online here every 3 or 4 days, so I seem to miss a lot, but it doesn't take Einstein to read between
the proverbial lines!!   :D   'BlueSkull' & 'eti' don;t LOVE me!!!!!!  Oh... Boo hoo...  >:D
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #96 on: May 29, 2020, 02:25:21 pm »
Sure, it may not be the best and most efficient way to deliver specific content
You cannot teach somebody complex technical subjects by feeding them video and audio only; it just does not work.  Every human learns in a slightly different way, and have a slightly different knowledge base, and need to dynamically adjust their focus to their personal needs. 
You said it yourself; every human learns in a slightly different way. However, by carefully editing my post you left out the part where I highlight my biggest concern: the generalization of your argument.

This is why video and audio alone are not suitable for tutorials.
(...)
Experiments, tips and tricks, showing details and "traps for young players" that often is gained only via real world experience, and so on, are not tutorials. 
Generalizations. Tutorials cater to audiences with varying degrees of depth - not everyone cares or needs to cover the fundamentals of something but instead need to solve a very specific and narrow problem.

It is sheer idiocy to believe videos and/or podcasts alone could suffice. 
(...)
You can glorify quick-and-easy media as much as you like,
Don't put words in my mouth.

Yet, while those videos and anecdotal text snippets and stories can be critical for learning results, they aren't the whole matter, only the highlights.
And yet you make the case they have their place and are not useless. The goalposts are quite mobile in your argument.

I have no idea who Keith Appleton is, but AvE is hardly an example of good concise information.
My entire point is that trying to convey too much information via a video is futile!  The bulk should be in some random-access medium, and the few key points, insights, experiences, or other stuff that maybe gets lost in the sea in the random-access medium, highlighted in a video.
Putting all the necessary points into a video makes for a bad video.  Good videos are stories, logs, key insights, et cetera.
You can't just make an absolute claim that a "good" educational video is blah blah. People learn in different ways.
Exactly. The generalization is the problem.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #97 on: May 29, 2020, 05:09:41 pm »
I have no idea who Keith Appleton is, but AvE is hardly an example of good concise information.
My entire point is that trying to convey too much information via a video is futile!  The bulk should be in some random-access medium, and the few key points, insights, experiences, or other stuff that maybe gets lost in the sea in the random-access medium, highlighted in a video.
Putting all the necessary points into a video makes for a bad video.  Good videos are stories, logs, key insights, et cetera.
You can't just make an absolute claim that a "good" educational video is blah blah.
I didn't!

A good video can be better than a lecture on the subject.  At best, they can be as good as talking one-on-one with an expert on the subject.

Your opamp video is one of these (among the best examples).  I have a written post about the very basics of perspective projection that would work much better as a video, and would only be a minute or two, tops.  So I'm definitely not saying that educational videos are blah blah, I'm just saying that videos alone do not suffice for us humans to truly learn.  If one relies on videos (or in-person lectures, just as equally), worst case, we get the impression that we do, while we don't.

Let's say that your claim is that videos suffice for learning stuff.  If you were right, schools and colleges and universities would be wasting untold amounts of money in books and exercise sessions.

I disagree.  I believe the vids could replace the parts where the teachers read from their own notes in front of people, definitely! but not the background information nor the practical exercises.  (The best lectures I've sat in, have been where the lecturer makes sure the key concepts are correctly understood, and people have a working intuitive grasp of the matter, and even point out a few typical misunderstandings people can have – and get asked and answers good questions about the topic.  So very much like your opamp video, and many other good Youtube lessons.) For Youtube videos, I think we can safely assume people will do the practical stuff on their own.  It is the importance of background information and reliable references that I absolutely hate to see being ignored, because it leads to the false sense of "I know this stuff" when you really don't.

If you look at that text of mine about perspective projection, you'll see that most of it is actually references to related key information; I wouldn't include those in the same video.  One could make a nice video lecture about unit quaternions (also known as versors), and how they can be used instead of Euler angles or Tait-Bryan angles; and another how you can use them in e.g. space simulation – each thruster would correspond 1:1 to a versor.  Interesting stuff!  But what about the basic linear algebra needed – matrix-matrix multiplication, matrix-vector multiplication, vector dot product, and vector cross product? Hamilton product?  Correspondences between versors and rotation matrices?  I guess you could make a series of video lectures from those, too.

But, how would you tie them all together?  Would you make a video that tells you what other videos to watch, or leave it for people to discover for themselves?  Or would you have playlists for suggested viewing for each topic?  You'd soon have more playlists than videos. 

Please do not confuse me with those who don't think the videos have educational value; I say they have, just as much as in-person lecturers or poster sessions or similar.  And that's definitely not blah-blah.

In the first thread we discussed this, I objected to "go find tutorials about this on Youtube".  That doesn't work for two reasons: one is that a newbie cannot tell good videos from the bad – view count or popularity isn't a reliable measure, because most people are stupid and wrong.  My main point in that thread was that because people have different knowledge levels, you cannot fully describe the basics of an entire subject – even something as simple as how to 3D print "right", avoiding typical problems – in videos; you need some random-access background or reference information to go base the video on.

(As a counterexample, Myfordboy has a couple of good videos about fixing issues with e.g. Creality Ender 3.  But that's not a tutorial, that's a lesson or session or whatchamacallit on fixing issues with the Creality Ender 3 3D printer.  The difference may feel like nitpicking, but think of yourself as the newbie on the receiving end: the difference is huge.)

You asked me to do a better video.  I can't, because there is nothing wrong in your videos; they're very good, some absolutely excellent.  That's never been in question with me.  (And as to the topic of this thread, I mentioned AvE and KeithAppleton as "old, cranky scrooges" who make good, useful videos one can learn from – but not something I'd call "tutorials".)

What would work even better, or suffice for tutorials and deeper learning, would be if something like The Art of Electronics was published on-line, with relevant chapters and sections linking to your videos, and your videos linking back to the text.  So, not me making new videos, but you teaming up with Paul and Winfield, or something like that.  See?

The weakest point in my argument, I think, is that people should be expected to find that background and reference information on their own.  My defense to that is that I see them fail to do that in real life, either from Dunning-Kruger (they not realizing they need to), laziness, or not being able to tell reliable information from hogwash.  I've seen first hand at StackOverflow and StackExchange that even in narrow fields, popularity or view count is no measure of reliability or correctness.

I do realize this entire argument is mostly due to my failure to properly express the problem I see occurring.  Some may feel it is irrelevant, but I am seeing it creep in in real life.  The key "sign" I've noticed is odd use of technical jargon; in electronics, the equivalent would be if somebody says "voltage flows ...".  And I know I write too much, but I don't know how to do better.  Sorry.

Also, I could be wrong.  If you or anybody else know I'm wrong, I would really appreciate if you'll tell me exactly how.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #98 on: June 02, 2020, 07:08:50 am »
I have no idea who Keith Appleton is, but AvE is hardly an example of good concise information.
My entire point is that trying to convey too much information via a video is futile!  The bulk should be in some random-access medium, and the few key points, insights, experiences, or other stuff that maybe gets lost in the sea in the random-access medium, highlighted in a video.
Putting all the necessary points into a video makes for a bad video.  Good videos are stories, logs, key insights, et cetera.
You can't just make an absolute claim that a "good" educational video is blah blah.
I didn't!

Let's say that your claim is that videos suffice for learning stuff.  If you were right, schools and colleges and universities would be wasting untold amounts of money in books and exercise sessions.
I disagree.

No one is arguing that.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.
« Reply #99 on: June 02, 2020, 07:16:41 am »
Please do not confuse me with those who don't think the videos have educational value; I say they have, just as much as in-person lecturers or poster sessions or similar.  And that's definitely not blah-blah.

You said, and I quote:
Quote
Hey, if that was intended for me, my point was that in my experience (learning, teaching, and tutoring), written text works much better as an information source (especially if interspersed with demo/example/experiment/worklog videos) than any tutorial videos I've ever seen.
You are demonstrably wrong.

Quote
In the first thread we discussed this, I objected to "go find tutorials about this on Youtube".  That doesn't work for two reasons: one is that a newbie cannot tell good videos from the bad

The exact same thing can be said for text books or text blogs. Just because say Floyd, or Art of Electronics are popular does NOT automatically make then the right text for you.
Same for my opamp videos, many will no doubt find it crap and much prefer say Great Scott's opamp video, or they might prefer the MIT lecture, or one of countless of others.
What is "good" for one person, may not work for another person, and vice-versa, and this also spreads across media types just as much as different styles within one media type.

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The weakest point in my argument, I think, is that people should be expected to find that background and reference information on their own.

No, your weakest point is trying to argue a point no one else is talking about. No one is saying videos are the be-all-end-all replacement for anything else.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 07:19:12 am by EEVblog »
 
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