Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.

[Syntax Error]

...there are posts commanding their entire design they need - "provide sample schematic, firmware and total explanation of circuit theory and operation" etc.
As if they are an outsourced contract employee... and clueless about how to live up to their fake resume claims.

My response to those pleading 'contractors' is, do your own friggin college project, just like everyone else on your course who are hard at work figuring this out.  Hang on, I did actually post that once to a freeloader who wrote, I understand how the circuit works, I just need to know what a resistance is. Google "people per hour", it's full of 'homework opportunities'.

[engrguy42]

It's ALWAYS the "other guy" who's at fault. Always.

[Nominal Animal]

TV and youtube are garbage for teaching you anything- it's like watching a video with someone explaining how to do a math exam. You don't actually experience the pain and learn the math, instead it's someone showing you the answers.

I tried saying exactly that in another thread recently – that looking for tutorials at Youtube is not sensible – and all I achieved was getting Dave mad, and calling me a troll who has a psychological need to get the final word. 

I love good criticism.  You know, the kind that has a sharp point that forces you to think, but a well founded, helpful argument behind it: poking at the argument, and not at the person.  That stuff gets lost when people are too terse.  Then again, I personally am way too verbose, with lower signal to noise ratio than I'd like.  Workin' on it, though. 

Because of the above, I like text for references, tutorials and background information, and videos for demonstrations, examples, and work logs.  Mixing the two seems to work even better.  Having a grumpy, cranky old-man tone isn't a negative there, as long as there is useful information and a bit of humour there.  Just look at AvE or KeithAppleton on Youtube.  In my opinion, of course.

[engrguy42]

Youtube is free. Complaining about it is bordering on insane. Youtube creators spend a ton of time producing stuff, and the vast majority of tech youtubers get little or nothing in return. Except for complaints and 357 variations of "oh, you should have done it THIS way". And people expecting you to be their private tutor for free. And give them all the code you write.

Absolutely insane. A lot of selfish, entitled people out there.

Instead, you should be thanking every single freakin' one of them for what they do, and hitting the like button so often it breaks your freakin' mouse. And subscribe to EVERYONE. Because that's the only way they get a few measly pennies in return for their many hours of work.

And if you really think their stuff sucks and you can do it better, then do it. Show the world how freakin' brilliant you are and how much better you are. Start your own channel, and learn what it's really like. 

[SiliconWizard]

Youtube is free. Complaining about it is bordering on insane. Youtube creators spend a ton of time producing stuff, and the vast majority of tech youtubers get little or nothing in return. Except for complaints and 357 variations of "oh, you should have done it THIS way". And people expecting you to be their private tutor for free. And give them all the code you write.

I agree with that. It also looks like the more you give, the more people are expecting from you.
Of course, if you manage to make good money out of it (which is not trivial), it can be worth it, but otherwise, it can be pretty frustrating.

[exe]

It's funny how the thread that supposed to be a rare example of group consciousness is slowly derailing

[Syntax Error]

Actually, thank everyone who contibutes to this vast digital universe of ours for free. The wiki editors, the open source coders, the web site builders and graphic designers, content providers, bloggers, vloggers and I guess, even the moderators.

Where were we 25 years ago? Not here.

Thanks Dave.

[Nominal Animal]

And if you really think their stuff sucks and you can do it better, then do it. Show the world how freakin' brilliant you are and how much better you are. Start your own channel, and learn what it's really like.

Hey, if that was intended for me, my point was that in my experience (learning, teaching, and tutoring), written text works much better as an information source (especially if interspersed with demo/example/experiment/worklog videos) than any tutorial videos I've ever seen. I am NOT saying that the videos suck; I'm only saying it is a poor medium for tutorials: like boiling water in a plastic bag.  I am also saying that that there already are cranky scrooges doing good demo/example/experiment/worklog videos on Youtube, with AvE and KeithAppleton as examples.  I'd include BigClive and Dave too, but I haven't seen either of them cranky.

[KL27x]

Instead, you should be thanking every single freakin' one of them for what they do, and hitting the like button so often it breaks your freakin' mouse. And subscribe to EVERYONE. Because that's the only way they get a few measly pennies in return for their many hours of work.

I have a fairly long list of subscriptions. I hit like everytime I most of the videos I watch defacto. But... in some cases you will likely never even find the video that contains the information you want to see. Because you only have a few search terms and the few words in a title and w/e other info algorithm YT uses... besides view count/likes. YouTube is not as searchable the way text is. When you search and find text, you can scan it to see if it's what you want. You can quickly compare one text source with another to determine where they agree, where there are differences of opinion or differences in the stated facts. When you search YT you get a list of titles, viewcount, like/dislike. The only way to see what's in it is to stick the fork in it and start eating w/e is at the top. What good is that? Furthermore, if you have your tinfoil hat on, tight, you might start wondering what other criteria YT is using to feed you your results... e.g., politics?

And if you really think their stuff sucks and you can do it better, then do it. Show the world how freakin' brilliant you are and how much better you are. Start your own channel, and learn what it's really like.

I think you're mistaking what anyone said, here. There are great entertainers. There is great information. The two don't often mix. For some subjects/topics, it really doesn't even make sense. YT is free, but the effect is beyond YT. Since YT, large percentages of text websites and text blogs have gone extinct. You could say it's indirectly because of YT, and I don't think that would be a stretch.

[SiliconWizard]

Yes, video blogs have largely "killed" text blogs. I find that annoying.
Sometimes, the entertainment value of videos makes them fun and easy to follow (and they give you an opportunity to see things working "live"), but when I'm looking for some info, I often wish it were available as pure text instead of a lengthy video (which may not even contain the info I need.)

So yeah, complaining to the authors of these videos is pointless, but complaining about the fact video content has sort of overtaken the web is something else.
Videos are more made for "immediate consumption", and tend to make you waste a lot of time if you're actually looking for more than entertainment.

Some people manage to make "good" videos, but there are few out there IMO.

[eti]

Youtube is free. Complaining about it is bordering on insane. Youtube creators spend a ton of time producing stuff, and the vast majority of tech youtubers get little or nothing in return. Except for complaints and 357 variations of "oh, you should have done it THIS way". And people expecting you to be their private tutor for free. And give them all the code you write.

Absolutely insane. A lot of selfish, entitled people out there.

Instead, you should be thanking every single freakin' one of them for what they do, and hitting the like button so often it breaks your freakin' mouse. And subscribe to EVERYONE. Because that's the only way they get a few measly pennies in return for their many hours of work.

And if you really think their stuff sucks and you can do it better, then do it. Show the world how freakin' brilliant you are and how much better you are. Start your own channel, and learn what it's really like.

YouTube is free TO US, but they get paid for doing it (as the incessant, cheesy, crass begging for likes and subscriptions, etc, demonstrates) - they are duly rewarded for their (sometimes) hard work. TV is free in the UK, apart from a meagre fee for a TV licence - but TV is generally tens of orders of magnitude more well researched, shot, edited and narrated - and they have the benefit of DECADES of experience, on-hand experts and VAST archives of past material to go on.

[eti]

Actually, thank everyone who contibutes to this vast digital universe of ours for free. The wiki editors, the open source coders, the web site builders and graphic designers, content providers, bloggers, vloggers and I guess, even the moderators.

Where were we 25 years ago? Not here.

Thanks Dave.

You're right - we we BETTER OFF that way, as too much "information", too much choice boggles and tires the mind. People had marginally, but measurably more patience, more respect and self-control, more manners and exponentially less narcissism than today. I'll take the 90s over this ANY DAY.

[engrguy42]

To those who are convinced that the average youtube tech creator is "duly rewarded" for his hard work...

- The facts are that it typically takes about 1,000 views of a video for the creator to receive $1 US. Yes, that's right. Only $1 for 1,000 views.

- And if anyone is thinking about starting a tech youtube channel today, it would likely take you years of regularly posting videos before you could get to the point where you have enough subscribers to be able to get paid any money for your videos. I recall you need something like 1,000 or 2,000 subscribers.

- Your videos don't show up when people search for topics unless they are already popular, which means they've received a lot of "likes" and subscriptions. So you can't get popular unless you're popular. And you can't get money unless a lot of people watch your videos. 

I could go on and on, but the facts are that the average tech youtuber gets very little, if any money, and has to put in years of work to get to that point. There are some exceptions of course, but those are people who have been very consistent and tenacious over the years, and have found the right niche. And they've also accepted the reality that their viewers are more interested in entertainment than in pure tech, and are willing to bend to those demands. Those are the people who realize that the average viewer will only watch the first 4 minutes of a video then click off to go watch a video of a cat playing piano.

For those who don't believe this, again I encourage you to start your own channel. You'll be amazed.

 

[rsjsouza]

Saying there is no good learning materials in Youtube is a generalization that borders idiocy. Even if you dislike Dave or find it minimally deep, pick how many people someone like Louis Rossmann helped get into the business over the years, or how many useful tips and theoretical/practical things w2aew shows in his videos. Sure, it may not be the best and most efficient way to deliver specific content but, at the rate of 300h of video uploaded at every minute, there is no humanly possible way to evaluate everything. Throw into that the vast number of different languages and you reach places that never had anything close to that knowledge.

Sure, I prefer to learn via a structured way presented on a book or an online article, but with the diminishing returns of printed media (especially in languages other than English) the authors going to an "easier to create" media such as Youtube are still a very reasonable vehicle of content distribution.

[SparkyFX]

Have you noticed that slowly but surely, un-civilized discourse across most, if not all internet forums has increased?

Yes and no. It is not as if humanity changed at all, a wider audience just got more exposure. I'd say from the many reasons, a few stick out:
- it is too hard to write lengthy posts on mobile devices, which has several effects on peoples' behavior (attention span when on the way, incomplete explanations and such)
- social network habits kicking in, as most people probably started interacting online via social networks, not usenet, mailing lists, forums

I'd also say the topic title ("Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums") focuses too much on who writes instead of what is written. This makes a huge difference in any topic - because it ignores the topic and gives rise to putting people in categories, which then becomes the topic. The latter is one of the biggest mistakes that can happen in a conversation, it is impossible to argue about pure existence or immutable properties without going extreme. Examples are plentiful in this thread.

There are also specific instances in technical forums, made by newbies with preposterous questions: "Can anyone draw me a schematic for a 10,000w sinewave inverter? I have a 741 and a pair of 2N3055s that I would like to use." And when someone knowledgeable attempts to reason with them, they reply with a variation of "Are you going to help me out or not?"

The nice thing about these questions is: give them as much effort as put in the question, in such cases it wasn't much. Works with any member on a forum, no need to make a distinction of newbie/old fart/political orientation and such.

TV and youtube are garbage for teaching you anything- it's like watching a video with someone explaining how to do a math exam.

Depends what kind of knowledge and from which end you approach the problem: from proving of having understood/applying/delivering a solution or from the process of learning. People are usually opposed to learn the same things a second time - maybe they need to refresh it once in a while. But that opposition is stronger than watching someone applying it.

There is knowledge which i could not learn from a textbook, i need to see how it's done and there are exceptionally good teachers on youtube showing their bag of tricks (or just plain basic knowledge) to anyone willing to watch it. Of course i think they should get more in return than some opinionated comment rant, but well - it is how it is.

[KL27x]

There's tons of good data in YT, of course. But it's like having the Homeland Security's vault of metadata. It's not practical to sort/search data in video format.

I could go on and on, but the facts are that the average tech youtuber gets very little, if any money, and has to put in years of work to get to that point.

Everyone knows that. People don't need a reward to share info. They do it because they want to. You can't do that on YT, though, because YT doesn't work that way. Because the contents of videos are not indexable/searchable very easily. But somehow our modern search engines will offer 100's of video hits, which are highly based on a title and key words and popularity/trends (and.. marketing bots are part of that), because... that's what is practical for a video. YT is a business. You could say this business is detrimental to the sharing of knowledge and beneficial to large marketers and media companies. And that it could have a larger effect on the entire internet.

[Nominal Animal]

Sure, it may not be the best and most efficient way to deliver specific content

You cannot teach somebody complex technical subjects by feeding them video and audio only; it just does not work.  Every human learns in a slightly different way, and have a slightly different knowledge base, and need to dynamically adjust their focus to their personal needs.  This is why video and audio alone are not suitable for tutorials.  This is also why just sitting in college or university classes and only listening won't get you far: you need to delve into the material on your own, and get a somewhat intuitive grasp on it, so that you can apply the knowledge as a tool.  Being able to recite information but not apply it is useless. 

Experiments, tips and tricks, showing details and "traps for young players" that often is gained only via real world experience, and so on, are not tutorials.  They are much less information dense, and are structured much more like a story.  The high points are often easy to note, and their conveyed details easily integrated; but only if the surrounding story supports it.  The viewer/listener is a passive participant, "experiencing" the story; in the best case, like watching over the shoulder of a seasoned professional.  It can be a very important part of the whole machinery of learning, but it alone does not suffice.

It is sheer idiocy to believe videos and/or podcasts alone could suffice.  Humans do not work that way.  You can learn a lot of stuff that way, for example languages, but not everything; and especially not complex creative tasks or technical subjects.  Those require more fundamental changes in the human mind than mere passive observation can induce.

You can glorify quick-and-easy media as much as you like, but the simple fact is that if you base your technical learning on Youtube videos, it will be superficial and poor indeed.  And it is not because the videos are poor, it is because they are unsuitable for the task because of how human learning works.

If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail, so I guess it is easy to think videos alone work, if they make you forget all the other work you've done to learn.

It is true that pure text and pictures is not as effective as text and pictures with an occasional story highlighting an important point, or explaining a crucial detail in another way.  Having those as videos with a much less dense information content, with a story-like structure, really REALLY works.  Most of you have also read old-style books, with interesting anecdotes or snippets sprinkled in, making the material much more approachable and sometimes even enjoyable; and those without, like reading an old phone book.  Or have wondered about a specific type of circuit, and have found an EEVblog video exploring it, and had the overall picture just "click" together.
Yet, while those videos and anecdotal text snippets and stories can be critical for learning results, they aren't the whole matter, only the highlights.

I'll try not to try and belabor this any further; probably shouldn't even post this...  If anyone is interested in exactly why I believe the above is true, feel free to delve into pedagogy and learning theory.

[Syntax Error]

You're right - we we BETTER OFF that way, as too much "information", too much choice boggles and tires the mind. People had marginally, but measurably more patience, more respect and self-control, more manners and exponentially less narcissism than today. I'll take the 90s over this ANY DAY.

As a programmer back in the pre mobile Spice World era, you know what I mean, Foyles Bookshop in London was my goto library of up to date programming text. I still have here on the shelf a Wrox Press HTML book, a 90s developer bible. The dialup internet, aka AOL, arrived, but we still needed our O'Reilly paperbacks and computer magazines as they were usefull. Now it's just an information avalanche. One we've created all by ourselves.

Alexa! So tell me what you want what you really-really want?

[tkamiya]

Well....  things were bad 15 years ago when I was in automotive forums.  I carry a habit from those days.

When conversation turns illogical and uncivil, I just leave the thread.  This year is quite special in that Covid-19 virus has placed enormous stress on everyone.  That's probably the main course if it's suddenly happening.  There were always agitators who purposely try to start an argument.  I can usually see right through them.  Except for few occasions, I am enjoying relative calm and civility in THIS forum. 

[Rick Law]

Youtube is free. Complaining about it is bordering on insane. Youtube creators spend a ton of time producing stuff, and the vast majority of tech youtubers get little or nothing in return. Except for complaints and 357 variations of "oh, you should have done it THIS way". And people expecting you to be their private tutor for free. And give them all the code you write.

Absolutely insane. A lot of selfish, entitled people out there.

Instead, you should be thanking every single freakin' one of them for what they do, and hitting the like button so often it breaks your freakin' mouse. And subscribe to EVERYONE. Because that's the only way they get a few measly pennies in return for their many hours of work.

And if you really think their stuff sucks and you can do it better, then do it. Show the world how freakin' brilliant you are and how much better you are. Start your own channel, and learn what it's really like.

YouTube is free TO US, but they get paid for doing it (as the incessant, cheesy, crass begging for likes and subscriptions, etc, demonstrates) - they are duly rewarded for their (sometimes) hard work. TV is free in the UK, apart from a meagre fee for a TV licence - but TV is generally tens of orders of magnitude more well researched, shot, edited and narrated - and they have the benefit of DECADES of experience, on-hand experts and VAST archives of past material to go on.

No, YouTube is NOT free TO US.  The cost is hidden from us, that doesn't mean it is free.

According to The Verge, youtube annual sales is $15 billion_[1].  It all came from advertisements and product prices are inflated cumulatively by $15 billion dollars that we the consumers paid to keep youtube around.

This is exactly like the tax the employer paid tax on each employee.  Take Social Security for example, the employee and the employer each pays half.  (Randomly picking $100...) It looks like you are paying only $100 while the other $100 came out of the employer's pocket.  But to the employer, the employer takes that $100 from the budget for your labor and give it to the SSA instead of giving it to you.  It matters not to the employer that you didn't get it directly -- It still is what it cost them for your labor.  You paid by getting $100 less what the employer actually paid for your labor.

They (government, SSA, Google) are counting on most people think it is free because it is hidden - you paid, and your payment is hidden from you.

Reference:
[1] Youtube revenue ("turn-over" for some of you) from The Verge:
https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/3/21121207/youtube-google-alphabet-earnings-revenue-first-time-reveal-q4-2019

EDITed: for typo only

[floobydust]

I see a link between OP noticing more discourse in forums, and TV and youtube.

Plopping kids in front of a TV for many hours, does damage their brains. This is proven and the younger generations are products of this kind of parenting. Aggression was an interesting side effect. If TV could really teach, classrooms and teachers would be obsolete. 
My point- the brain doesn't store the content, just try to remember a TED Talk you've watched... it's just a little dopamine buzz that effects your psyche. I had Lego and books and a tiny bit of TV as a kid, which makes a person different. Then the prevalence of more TV, videos, video games, Internet... generations are more and more affected by all this content flowing into our children like a drug.

On the forums, troll food is also a little dopamine buzz from derailing a thread or shitposting, feeling important and powerful. You may notice angry bear members who hate the people here, but stick around for some reason, what's in it for them.

There are no means to stop people from derailing a thread, trolling, going into personal attacks, shitposting etc. Mods can shut down a thread as only a last resort.
But relying on common courtesy and respect is very noble but I don't think it's enough because one troll can kill a thread with 100's people in it.
The very smart people I know are just no longer participating in Internet forums because the S/N ratio is poor, it's hostile and draining of energy.

[engrguy42]

Rick Law, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but since the beginning of time companies selling products add the cost of advertising to the price of the product. Youtube is no different. They're an advertising agency.

The issue was raised that creators get little or no money for all their work, but users don't pay them for it. Instead they act entitled to get what they want. Whether we pay for advertising when we buy products seems a bit irrelevant doesn't it? We also pay for shipping, and manufacturing, and employee benefits, and so on when we buy products. 

[schmitt trigger]

  This year is quite special in that Covid-19 virus has placed enormous stress on everyone.  That's probably the main course if it's suddenly happening.

I believe that you hit the nail in the head.

Not only the lockdown itself, but the economies are tanking and many (myself included) have lost or will lose their jobs. The incessant bad news, the outrage between groups about how to deal with the fallout.....all these factors take its toll.

[Someone]

Already two entirely separate conversations.

"cranky scrooges" vs low post count demanders. There is an endless supply of eager/optimistic young people who will answer questions feeling like they are contributing. This group strongly overlaps with those with little to no real experience or ability (Dunning–Kruger etc). If left to run you end up with a forum full of questions and rubbish answers, which encourages more of the same behaviour. Combine that with a trend for people to expect extremely specific advice (that is for their profit/advantage, e.g. find me a lower price on this $10 widget) for free, having come through the internet and its seemingly endless free sources...

Youtube has sucked up content producers because it was paying the best, simple as that. Encapsulating information inside a video is a soft form of paywall. If they provided a text version it would reduce the views and cut their income.

You can't do that on YT, though, because YT doesn't work that way. Because the contents of videos are not indexable/searchable very easily. But somehow our modern search engines will offer 100's of video hits, which are highly based on a title and key words and popularity/trends (and.. marketing bots are part of that), because... that's what is practical for a video. YT is a business. You could say this business is detrimental to the sharing of knowledge and beneficial to large marketers and media companies. And that it could have a larger effect on the entire internet.

Think for a moment, youtube has automated captioning and the comments for a video. They have a huge text resource behind each video that is poorly presented to the public but well structured in their database. Google search has no interest in you always finding the "most correct" or "best" information, rather the links that they profit most from. Well structured search queries return their "are you a bot?" captchas, because the vast majority of users are not there for reliable information. Facebook amplify this x1,000,000 and take it to the logical extreme.

[KL27x]

^Exactly. I agree. YT computers or workers can search and scan the automated captions or w/e you call it. They have access to the text data. We don't get that. We get w/e YT wants us to find.

That amount of power is absolutely frightening. It would be bad enough if they were using this power solely to maximize profits. But we know that's not how people work. Frightening.