Are You old?

[IconicPCB]

Wisdom comes with age, sometimes age comes alone.

[tpowell1830]

Hey, wait till you are interviewing for a job and the HR guy said: "Oh, wow, you are older than my father..."  That was an clearly age-discriminating comment which is and was illegal.

How is that statement on its own illegal? Its rude, but surely its just a comment, unless it clearly weighs upon the outcome of the interview.

The point in the discrimination law is to prevent age discrimination, but there is no way to determine what the interviewer was thinking. He could be making a subversive statement revealing his bias against older people or he could be just making an observation. If the interviewee was hired, it would be a hard to prove case, however, if the interviewee was not hired and fully qualified, a case might be made for age discrimination.

Personally, if i didn't make the cut in that specific job, I tend to roll with the punches and would go find a different job. We are all biased in one way or the other, it is just human nature, and it tends to slip out sometimes.

[vtwin@cox.net]

The point in the discrimination law is to prevent age discrimination, but there is no way to determine what the interviewer was thinking.

And the sad point is the laws (here in the US at least) probably result in more age-related discrimination under the covers.

Case in point: I recently applied for a position within my company I was more than qualified for. However, it's well known (as I work in the public sector) how long I've been there, and the fact that I have another year to go before I could if I so desire retire.

The job ended up going to a much younger, and less qualified, individual (I am 54, the other person in his early 40's)

Of course, I can't prove anything.... but I suspect people are wondering "is he going to stick around after he gets his 20?" I've been on the hiring end too, and those questions enter my mind whenever I interview an older candidate (e.g. "if I hire him how long is he going to stick around until he retires?"

Nobody can *ask* those questions, because... well.. that's age discrimination.. so instead, we "err on the side of caution" and hire the younger candidate", because he's "safer", "has a family", "is more likely to stick around", etc.

Whereas, if someone had the ability to ask me: "Twinny, aren't you going to retire soon?" I could answer "nah, my wife is 5 months pregnant and I have to stick around another 2 decades until this one is out of college too"


In this neck of the woods, there's a coffee chain known as "Mary Lou's Coffee" which is known for for it's young, perky, fit waitresses. Hate to say it, but "stout" 54-year-old Twinny dont have a shot of landing a job there to supplement his pension. Age discrimination? You betcha.

[retrolefty]

There is a really good explanation as to why time seems to accelerate as you get older, (56yrs here) your brain's clock actually slows down, so that relative to you, the world appears to be speeding up!
Not sure if I would choose the same career, but it did lead me to the best part, my wonderful wife.
Thanks Sally!
Rob

 I go with the simpler and logical explanation of why time seems to speed by faster as one ages. It's because each succeeding year is a smaller percentage of one's total age. Turned 72 this month, but truly in mind I never feel or felt any specific age ever. Eyesight and hearing are not what they once were but so far doesn't seem too limiting. Its been a great time in history to have been born in my era, so many advances. 

[GlennSprigg]

It's all 'horses for courses'. I'm in my mid 60's now. I've been an Electrician, special class, & technician
for 45 years in commercial/industrial environments. Through MOST of that, I had something to offer !!
Some people like to make themselves indispensable to 'protect' their jobs. I, on the other-hand, LOVED
to share knowledge, as I remember what it was like when first starting. Be-it Apprentices, or Work-
Experience people, or new tradespeople/techs. in various fields/companies. I NEVER withheld info !!

I'm talking about the days when the most learned/capable main-stayers in companies, knew every
inch of the Plant, and worked with PRIDE. And they were VALUED.
Throughout the majority of 'those' times, large companies also had teams of 'Carpenters', 'Welders',
'Plumbers' etc, as WELL as the ubiquitous mechanical-fitters/machinists and Elect/Techs....
NOW... it's down to outside Contractors/Sub-Contractors for 90% of all the work, or more....

OK,so where does this leave us ?  (Let's digress for a minute).
I do not know about other countries, but here in Australia, most automated/specialized machinery
is now of a fairly standardized form, from many parts of Europe. The companies that supply the
machinery, also now have major contracts to maintain them, along with a lot of ancillary equipment.
I've repeatedly seen specialized 'techs' from a supplier, that know nothing about the individual plant,
and are starting from square one to find faults or work on the 'plant' as a whole.

Now I understand completely that times are a bit different now with regard to specific technological
advances, beyond 'Old-School' schooling these days, but PLEASE do not forget the absolute wealth
of knowledge that 'us oldies' can pass on for free, in a typical work environment. There's an old
saying about NOT throwing the baby out with the bath water !!!  Most companies have done that 

[onesixright]

Life is like a roll of wire, the closer to the end you get the faster it goes.

Brilliant! very EE-ish

Agreed.

The older you get, the more you do the same (routines!). The more you do, that you already did, the more likely you do that on the 'auto-pilot'. Hence, time flies.

Routines are a b!tch 

Spice up the routine!

[Mr. Scram]

And the sad point is the laws (here in the US at least) probably result in more age-related discrimination under the covers.

Case in point: I recently applied for a position within my company I was more than qualified for. However, it's well known (as I work in the public sector) how long I've been there, and the fact that I have another year to go before I could if I so desire retire.

The job ended up going to a much younger, and less qualified, individual (I am 54, the other person in his early 40's)

Of course, I can't prove anything.... but I suspect people are wondering "is he going to stick around after he gets his 20?" I've been on the hiring end too, and those questions enter my mind whenever I interview an older candidate (e.g. "if I hire him how long is he going to stick around until he retires?"

Nobody can *ask* those questions, because... well.. that's age discrimination.. so instead, we "err on the side of caution" and hire the younger candidate", because he's "safer", "has a family", "is more likely to stick around", etc.

Whereas, if someone had the ability to ask me: "Twinny, aren't you going to retire soon?" I could answer "nah, my wife is 5 months pregnant and I have to stick around another 2 decades until this one is out of college too"


In this neck of the woods, there's a coffee chain known as "Mary Lou's Coffee" which is known for for it's young, perky, fit waitresses. Hate to say it, but "stout" 54-year-old Twinny dont have a shot of landing a job there to supplement his pension. Age discrimination? You betcha.

They're not allowed to ask, but you can certainly volunteer the information. Women of a child baring age tend to have the same problem.

[ebastler]

[...] I have another year to go before I could if I so desire retire.
[...] I am 54

Heck, are you a fighter pilot or some such? 
Seems that conditions in the public sector are pretty generous in your country!

I guess I'm envious. Retirement age here will be 67 by the time I get there...

[rdl]

This is a very good point. I fell into the daily grind routine trap for almost 20 years. It's a mistake. Try to do different stuff. Avoid spending every weekend at home. Don't take "Staycations" every year, spend some money and go somewhere. You will never regret the money spent on a real vacation because the memories you will make will be priceless.

 

...

The older you get, the more you do the same (routines!). The more you do, that you already did, the more likely you do that on the 'auto-pilot'. Hence, time flies.

Routines are a b!tch 

Spice up the routine!

[onesixright]

This is a very good point. I fell into the daily grind routine trap for almost 20 years. It's a mistake. Try to do different stuff. Avoid spending every weekend at home. Don't take "Staycations" every year, spend some money and go somewhere. You will never regret the money spent on a real vacation because the memories you will make will be priceless.

 

...

The older you get, the more you do the same (routines!). The more you do, that you already did, the more likely you do that on the 'auto-pilot'. Hence, time flies.

Routines are a b!tch 

Spice up the routine!

Yeah, thats why most people feel like a week of holiday, felt like it was a month (new impressions) 😀

Take a different route to work, eat somewhere else, learn something new!

[Rick Law]

...
...
The older you get, the more you do the same (routines!). The more you do, that you already did, the more likely you do that on the 'auto-pilot'. Hence, time flies.

Routines are a b!tch 

Spice up the routine!

"Auto-pilot" is certainly a problem for the old, but also a problem for the younger.  It is a learned attitude which can be changed.

[ If you would indulge me, let me be a "know it better" old guy for a moment and share this with you younger folks... ]

It was fortuitous for me that I learned this from my boss and his boss at a younger age:

One must remember, all knowledge (and processes) have a shelf life and one must be vigilant in detecting it.  The right answer to a question for yesterday may not the the right answer to the same question tomorrow.

Which also flow into the next very important I learned from the same two people:
Learning doesn't stop.  <---  This is where the young/new grads often fall short.  Many think with their newly minted BS degree, they already know everything they needed to know -- and fail to learn from other's mistake.  Some even fail to learn from their own mistake.

Having learned those lessons myself, I became much more observant.  I observe those in positions I want to be in and see what they do different.  Some habits I observed were good ones that I incorporate into my being, some habits I laughed at.

Technology really is no place for "auto-pilot".  There were days when a college grad learned CICS (IBM mainframe stuff) and use that for 10+ years.   Not anymore.  With the much shorter shelf-life of technology today, if you don't re-engineer yourself in subject matter, context, and conduct regularly, you are a dinosaur in no time.

Knowing what to do is one thing, execution is another.  Knowing what is the right thing to do is good, but one still has to do it and do it right.  I would say, execution is where I fall short of my own aspirations.  Knowing my own short comings, two things I say most often in my staff meetings:

(1) The thing I don't want to hear are the things I most need to hear (often followed by "so come out with the bad new, I need to know".)

(2) Good strategy you need only one, good execution you need every damn day.  (often followed by "So do it, and do it right. Don't tell me you don't have enough time - if you don't have time to do it right the first time, where the heck are you going to find the time to do it over?")

Inspired by "The Spanish Inquisition" that "no one expects", I got to have three things.  So I will add this:
(3) Instead of "don't do what I do, do what say", I trained myself into the habit of saying: "Don't make the same mistake I do; go do what we both know is right."

But of course, these three points have shelf-life too.  I am not sure they apply these days.  For me, these days, I don't care, I am old and retired.  So, I have the luxury of stress free error-ignoring days...

[cdev]

Acetyl-L-carnitine improves aged brain function.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20590847

Kobayashi, Satoru; Iwamoto, Machiko; Kon, Kazuo; Waki, Hatsue; Ando, Susumu; Tanaka, Yasukazu

2010-07-01

The effects of acetyl-L-carnitine (ALCAR), an acetyl derivative of L-carnitine, on memory and learning capacity and on brain synaptic functions of aged rats were examined. Male Fischer 344 rats were given ALCAR (100 mg/kg bodyweight) per os for 3 months and were subjected to the Hebb-Williams tasks and AKON-1 task to assess their learning capacity. Cholinergic activities were determined with synaptosomes isolated from brain cortices of the rats. Choline parameters, the high-affinity choline uptake, acetylcholine (ACh) synthesis and depolarization-evoked ACh release were all enhanced in the ALCAR group. An increment of depolarization-induced calcium ion influx into synaptosomes was also evident in rats given ALCAR. Electrophysiological studies using hippocampus slices indicated that the excitatory postsynaptic potential slope and population spike size were both increased in ALCAR-treated rats. These results indicate that ALCAR increases synaptic neurotransmission in the brain and consequently improves learning capacity in aging rats.

[rhb]

At 60+ a  Stanford PhD will not get you a job in the oil industry even if you have known all the senior  managers for 20 or 30 years and are proficient at state of the art hot topics such as compressive sensing.

Part of it is cost, but a larger issue is you won't be around for another 20-30 years.

My "retirement" plan was just to work shorter hours, say 500-1000 hours per year.  I enjoy working with really smart people. So now I'm focused on electronics and hang out here.  Not *quite* as much fun as having a really sharp PhD routinely wandering into my office and start scribbling on the white board. Or being able to do the same in his office.  But still a huge source of enjoyment.  But in this case *I* had to buy the necessary tools rather than having someone buy them *and* pay me.

Fortunately, I followed Dad's example and squeezed every penny with Vice Grips before letting go of it.

A comment on Rick Law's post.  If you do not spend 4 hours a week investigating something you think *might* help you in your work, you will get what you deserve.  And you probably won't like it. In engineering and science this means buying $100-$200 books and reading them cover to cover on *your* time, not your employer's time.  If you are not willing to invest in yourself, why should anyone else?

I have worked with far too many PhDs who would not read a book unless the company bought the book *and* paid them to read it. Who were then just shocked that they were laid off.

[Rick Law]

...
...
A comment on Rick Law's post.  If you do not spend 4 hours a week investigating something you think *might* help you in your work, you will get what you deserve.  And you probably won't like it. In engineering and science this means buying $100-$200 books and reading them cover to cover on *your* time, not your employer's time.  If you are not willing to invest in yourself, why should anyone else?

I have worked with far too many PhDs who would not read a book unless the company bought the book *and* paid them to read it. Who were then just shocked that they were laid off.

I too saw this expectation you described from many: the employer should and will train me on what is necessary or beneficiary.  Such expectation from technologist is really bewildering to me.

Technologist are typically knowledgeable, smart, and logical people.  But if you sit on your hands to wait till the company found it necessary to train it's staff in certain technology, by the time you are trained, so are your colleagues.  How then do you gain a competitive advantage?  Even worst, waiting until someone hands it to you is not exactly an attribute you want to show your employer.  This confounds me even today.  Why would smart and logical people do something so illogical?  Why would you wait until your competition catches up?

I have (to my recollection) never turned down an expense report for training material, but I had never initiated employee technology training unless it is absolutely necessary.  If the employee is not diligent and conscientious enough to look out for what he/she needs, and not driven enough to go get it on his/her own, I am not pushing him/her.  Pushing would be a waste of my time which would be better spend on those who are driven, diligent, conscientious, and self-aware.

It does come at a cost.  I recall a few who believe I am a sorry arse for that.

[coppice]

I too saw this expectation you described from many: the employer should and will train me on what is necessary or beneficiary.  Such expectation from technologist is really bewildering to me.

Technologist are typically knowledgeable, smart, and logical people.  But if you sit on your hands to wait till the company found it necessary to train it's staff in certain technology, by the time you are trained, so are your colleagues.  How then do you gain a competitive advantage?  Even worst, waiting until someone hands it to you is not exactly an attribute you want to show your employer.  This confounds me even today.  Why would smart and logical people do something so illogical?  Why would you wait until your competition catches up?

I have (to my recollection) never turned down an expense report for training material, but I had never initiated employee technology training unless it is absolutely necessary.  If the employee is not diligent and conscientious enough to look out for what he/she needs, and not driven enough to go get it on his/her own, I am not pushing him/her.  Pushing would be a waste of my time which would be better spend on those who are driven, diligent, conscientious, and self-aware.

It does come at a cost.  I recall a few who believe I am a sorry arse for that.

In my experience most reasonable employers are quite flexible about helping with the time and cost of keeping up to date. You can only expect them to help you learn material with a strong relevance to their current needs, though. That just isn't enough to get you through a 40 year working life. There are going to be some disruptive steps in that working life, as large scale changes in technologies and markets occur. Only you are in a position to ensure you have gained enough suitable knowledge to minimise how much they disrupt your life.

[rhb]

Four hours a week is 10% of your regular work week in the US.  It's a couple of evenings a week at most. As previously remarked, if you don't care enough about maintaining your skills to spend that small effort, why should your employer?

I have a very large personal technical library.   About 1/2 of it is unrelated to my work.  The other half is. I have 80 ft of shelf space devoted to computer books alone.  No, I did *not* read the X11R4 and Motif reference manuals cover to cover. But I read the software engineering, programming, hardware reference manuals and such.   The other side is mathematics and geosciences.  Particularly in the area of mathematics, a lot were bought for references.  I have not had many occasions to read Watson's "A Treatise on the Theory of Bessel Functions".  It sits on my shelf so that if a question came up at work that required it, I would know the answer the next morning.  And I was paid *very* handsomely for that. I *only* read those books at work if I had an immediate work related task that required them.

I have invested in excess of $100K on my personal library.  I was  subjected to ridicule by some of my classmates about my book purchases.  They preferred driving a recent  BMW rather than 15 year old, high mileage VW bus.  But I made serious money from the use of my library.  A BMW would have just been a substantial expense.

So, are you old?  Well, 90 is officially old.  My dad moved a 3000 lb milling machine *by himself* at age 87.  He passed away at 91.

Mother passed away 6 years later, a month and a day short of 96.  She only stopped driving at 95.  The day she died we went to church, had lunch and I went home.  She broke with her usual habits and baked 20 dozen cookies, 3 loaves of bread and finished a needlepoint she was making for a close friend whom she had realized she had not given one.  She sat down to get ready for bed and died.  I'm sure she was delighted.  She had trouble seeing and hearing.  And worse yet, she couldn't go as fast as she liked.  Unless she had a shopping cart to keep her from falling.  In which case, she still went like a bat out of hell.  So when I dropped her off at Walmart and parked in the nearest handicapped spot I then had to search the entire store to find her.

[cdev]

Pre-publication abstract

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29656010

    Format: Abstract

Send to
Neurobiol Aging. 2018 Jul;67:108-119. doi: 10.1016/j.neurobiolaging.2018.03.015. Epub 2018 Mar 21.

Age-related defects in short-term plasticity are reversed by acetyl-L-carnitine at the mouse calyx of Held.


Singh M, Miura P, Renden R.

Abstract

Hearing acuity and sound localization are affected by aging and may contribute to cognitive dementias. Although loss of sensorineural conduction is well documented to occur with age, little is known regarding short-term synaptic plasticity in central auditory nuclei. Age-related changes in synaptic transmission properties were evaluated at the mouse calyx of Held, a sign-inverting relay synapse in the circuit for sound localization, in juvenile adults (1 month old) and late middle-aged (18-21 months old) mice. Synaptic timing and short-term plasticity were severely disrupted in older mice. Surprisingly, acetyl-l-carnitine (ALCAR), an anti-inflammatory agent that facilitates mitochondrial function, fully reversed synaptic transmission delays and defects in short-term plasticity in aged mice to reflect transmission similar to that seen in juvenile adults. These findings support ALCAR supplementation as an adjuvant to improve short-term plasticity and potentially central nervous system performance in animals compromised by age and/or neurodegenerative disease.

KEYWORDS:

Acetyl-l-carnitine; Aging; Calyx of held; Electrophysiology; Neurotransmission; Synaptic plasticity

PMID:
    29656010
PMCID:
    PMC5955853
    [Available on 2019-07-01]
DOI:
    10.1016/j.neurobiolaging.2018.03.015

[vk6zgo]

It's all 'horses for courses'. I'm in my mid 60's now. I've been an Electrician, special class, & technician
for 45 years in commercial/industrial environments. Through MOST of that, I had something to offer !!
Some people like to make themselves indispensable to 'protect' their jobs. I, on the other-hand, LOVED
to share knowledge, as I remember what it was like when first starting. Be-it Apprentices, or Work-
Experience people, or new tradespeople/techs. in various fields/companies. I NEVER withheld info !!

I'm talking about the days when the most learned/capable main-stayers in companies, knew every
inch of the Plant, and worked with PRIDE. And they were VALUED.
Throughout the majority of 'those' times, large companies also had teams of 'Carpenters', 'Welders',
'Plumbers' etc, as WELL as the ubiquitous mechanical-fitters/machinists and Elect/Techs....
NOW... it's down to outside Contractors/Sub-Contractors for 90% of all the work, or more....

OK,so where does this leave us ?  (Let's digress for a minute).
I do not know about other countries, but here in Australia, most automated/specialized machinery
is now of a fairly standardized form, from many parts of Europe. The companies that supply the
machinery, also now have major contracts to maintain them, along with a lot of ancillary equipment.
I've repeatedly seen specialized 'techs' from a supplier, that know nothing about the individual plant,
and are starting from square one to find faults or work on the 'plant' as a whole.

Now I understand completely that times are a bit different now with regard to specific technological
advances, beyond 'Old-School' schooling these days, but PLEASE do not forget the absolute wealth
of knowledge that 'us oldies' can pass on for free, in a typical work environment. There's an old
saying about NOT throwing the baby out with the bath water !!!  Most companies have done that 

Indeed!

I was lucky enough to work for two Employers consecutively, who still maintained some of the old ways of doing things.
Both of them eventually became caught up in the "need" to cut technical staff, because of two misperceptions.

(1)That they were overstaffed ---& in the case of the former, with "bludging public servants".
(If you demonised any other group in society, there would be an outcry, but Govt. workers are always fair game).

(2)The false perception that "technology" had made all our jobs obsolete!

With the earlier employer, It was hard to go to work, spend all day doing necessary stuff, only to be told by people with no knowledge of the field that "It can all be done with computers".

The result of cutting staff was that those remaining had to do the work of those who had left, with the result that they were constantly stressed.
Some people had received redundancy payouts, but we hadn't, so we were in the situation of doing everybody else's work, as well as our own, with, in many cases, lower pay.
Many "pulled the plug", including me.

I went to a Commercial TV station, for a bit lower pay, but a lot less harassment.
I stayed there 10 years, so I mustn't have been such a "bludger", after all!
They eventually succumbed to the "downsizing" craze, but at least, they offered voluntary redundancy to everyone.

I then, (not voluntarily), had nearly a year off --- no dole, as my wife supposedly made too much money for me to be eligible.
I then had a lot of short term jobs-- all except one utilising my Electronics knowledge to some degree.
Thus, I came to my last job, where I found myself pushing chip capacitors across various spots on RF amplifiers while applying an RF sweep signal to them---- something I had last done about thirty years before.
So don't discount old knowledge & skills, or they will come back to bite you!

[vtwin@cox.net]

They're not allowed to ask, but you can certainly volunteer the information. Women of a child baring age tend to have the same problem.

True, and knowing that, I usually attempt to work some type of "life circumstances" talk into the discussion  in a roundabout, casual way, to "plant the seed", so to speak. Even so, having been on the hiring end of the discussion, even with that information I know how hiring managers "think".... and you're dead on about women in their child-bearing years.

Heck, are you a fighter pilot or some such? 
Seems that conditions in the public sector are pretty generous in your country!

I guess I'm envious. Retirement age here will be 67 by the time I get there...

Secret agent

We pay 11% of our total salary into the retirement plan while we're employed. The retirement system allows you to get a pension with as little as 10 years of service, starting as early as age 55. You won't get a lot, though, only 15% of your base pay.  The "standard" is 20 years of service at age 65 will get you a 50% pension. Each year of service above or below, and each year of age above or below, either adds or subtracts from that 50%.

[GlennSprigg]

They're not allowed to ask, but you can certainly volunteer the information. Women of a child baring age tend to have the same problem.

True, and knowing that, I usually attempt to work some type of "life circumstances" talk into the discussion  in a roundabout, casual way, to "plant the seed", so to speak. Even so, having been on the hiring end of the discussion, even with that information I know how hiring managers "think".... and you're dead on about women in their child-bearing years.

Heck, are you a fighter pilot or some such? 
Seems that conditions in the public sector are pretty generous in your country!

I guess I'm envious. Retirement age here will be 67 by the time I get there...

Secret agent

We pay 11% of our total salary into the retirement plan while we're employed. The retirement system allows you to get a pension with as little as 10 years of service, starting as early as age 55. You won't get a lot, though, only 15% of your base pay.  The "standard" is 20 years of service at age 65 will get you a 50% pension. Each year of service above or below, and each year of age above or below, either adds or subtracts from that 50%.

Thank you for not only your input, but for "daring" to utilize such quote-marks for emphasis !!   
I'm now used to, no end, for being abused for doing that. But that's just me.. (...) (....)   
You know what you mean & why, I know what you mean & why. 

[ebastler]

Thank you for not only your input, but for "daring" to utilize such quote-marks for emphasis !!   
I'm now used to, no end, for being abused for doing that. But that's just me.. (...) (....)   
You know what you mean & why, I know what you mean & why. 

Hi Glenn, having been among those who complained about your unconventional use of quotes, I feel guilty now.    But I noticed in other recent posts of yours that you have switched to boldface or caps to indicate emphasis, and found them much easier to read indeed!

When reading vtwin's post above, I think he consistently uses quotes to indicate "so to speak" or "as it were", rather than emphasis. That's what quotes were designed for! 

[Brumby]

Thank you for not only your input, but for "daring" to utilize such quote-marks for emphasis !!   
I'm now used to, no end, for being abused for doing that. But that's just me.. (...) (....)   

I must admit that, at first, I also found your emphasis efforts quite distracting.  They made it difficult to pick up on the core points.

However, now I find it a lot easier.  Perhaps that's through my getting used to your style or because you have eased off a bit - or a bit of both.  Either way, it doesn't bother me much at all these days - but it is still easy to recognise the style.  (Don't ever start writing ransom notes!)

You bring some interesting perspectives to the forum - and that's great for the health of this place.

[Alex Eisenhut]

Not since I started counting in hex

[Brumby]

What's wrong with counting in hex?

[vtwin@cox.net]

What's wrong with counting in hex?

Years ago I had a boss w/ a sign on his desk: "When you think of asking for a raise, think binary"