Aussies on a rant

[Corporate666]

No, it is not obvious. Words have meaning (except perhaps to politicians).  Look, if you meant something different than what you said, it's ok to say so.  No reason to pick a fight.

The truth is we have significant gun control in this country now:  background checks, 3 days waiting period, etc.

It's interesting to note that that poll shows that even a few years ago when the assault weapon ban was still in place, the numbers were similar.

I'm not picking a fight - I am just sitting here in incredulity about what you're saying.  When someone says "people who want gun control", you're essentially saying that it means everyone - since I doubt there is a single sane person who thinks a toddler should be able to buy an RPG from a vending machine.  It seems pretty obvious to me that "people who wan't gun control" doesn't include the people who think we should leave gun laws alone or have less gun control, etc.  But go with whatever rationalization you prefer - the fact is that people who want more gun control just want to ban guns - fact.

Say what?  First the poll doesn't address that issue, second I never said anything about "gun nuts" Hell, some would say I'm  a gun nut because I own guns.  You're  creating straw men again.

You wrote "is simply the hysteria whipped up by the usual 'gun nut' sources"

I'm on the email list of several "Liberty Movement" organizations because I'm in favor of some of their causes. Almost daily, I get emails warning me that the "liberals" or "Obama" wants to take my guns away. But there is absolutely no facts to support that idea.  In fact, as far as I'm aware there has been no serious national effort to ban guns (other than assault weapons) in this country for decades.

And when I drive to work, I pass a couple of loons who have a poster of Obama with a Hitler mustache and saying "pull over to stop Obama now".  Take a gander over at Democratic Underground and see the folks that want a literal French-style revolution with "the wealthy" being burned at stakes in the street.  These loons are the small minority.

Saying that gun owners are (mostly) opposed to any gun control laws would be just as false as your previous (but now clarified) statement that those in favor of gun control (mostly) want to really take your guns away.

Your own source proved me correct - most people who want more gun control just want to ban guns.  It's indisputable because your own survey proved it.  Hanging your hat on the claim that "Ohhh, I thought when you said most people who want gun control, you meant the ones who don't want more and the ones who want less too" is laughable.

It's these type of statements that are responsible for the lack of any sane political discourse in this country IMO.

People who correctly identify the true motives of a certain section of the political spectrum are not the problem - if that identification is true.  People who lump groups into categories like "gun nuts" and make presumptions such as the claim that the "gun nut" category is the same as the "don't touch my health care" category based on a sample size of one - are the problem. 

[Corporate666]

Rubbish. There is broad public and even majority support in America for many proposed aspects of gun control legislation that we over here take entirely for granted. Under what "varying laws by nationality" unique to the USA make it sane to manufacture and distribute in the 10's of thousands lethal weapons for kiddies (just one possible example amongst many)?

You are proving my point better than anything I could have posted.

You claim that there is an objective standard for guns and there is no room for the USA to have a different standard that doesn't match yours.  That is the definition of arrogance.

I don't think we should be selling beer to 16 year olds in the USA, but if Germany wants to do that, let them.  They have a different culture and the drinking age is subjective.

You think it's "insane" that there are guns designed for children.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with a parent buying a gun for their child.  It's a valid sport, a valid past-time and I know countless kids who learned to shoot with Dad.  To label an entire aspect of culture that you don't share and don't understand as "insane" is just bigotry.

[zapta]

Aussies on a rant

Aussies should mind their own business.

[Corporate666]

It's fascinating how some internationals are obsessed with the US.  It's like stopping in a red light in a really nice sport car. The Honda Civic kid in the next lane always wants to prove that his car can launch faster. The wise thing to do is to let them feel good about their cars. Well, Australia is a faster car than the US.

Actually, it's more like watching a trainwreck. As much as you really want to look away you just can't.

 

[Corporate666]

No, you purposely misunderstood. It's nothing to do with my personal aesthetic leanings. You can't make a toy gun look like a real one in case someone mistakes the toy gun with a real gun. The legal requirements are an orange tip OR a generally colourful appearance. You can make real guns look like toy guns by giving them a colourful appearance* therefore making it impossible to tell if a gun is a toy one or not. Therefore Tamir Rice...

How do you achieve that?  Ban paint, 3D printers/paper-mache and anything that could be used to make a fake gun that looks real?  It's an impossible thing to achieve.  As for Tamir Rice, he wasn't shot because he had a toy gun, he was shot because a criminal police officer murdered him.  That police officer, IIRC, is still waiting the results of an investigation into whether he will be charged but a few weeks ago a judge ruled there is probable cause to charge him with murder.   A tragic story, but you can't use the single example to justify the whole.

No, they're equating toys with guns and shooting without even confirming there's any threat. As I said in an earlier first it's admittedly rare but once is too much. Or would you rather ban toy guns instead of having a definite way to make the distinction?

I think all the people I know who had guns as kids were much more responsible with them than those who learned later in life.  Like the kids who raced karts or dirtbikes were less likely to be idiots behind the wheel on the street when they got their license.  The "once is too much" thing is incorrect - if the metric is "if it happens even once, we need to do something", then alcohol has to be banned immediately, along with all pocket knives, chewing gum, most forms of clothes, multi-story buildings, etc.  Anything that ever led to a situation where someone was killed, if "even once is too much".  But we both know that it's always a risk/reward thing.  We accept cars that aren't limited in top speed to 60mph because we trust people not to abuse it - even though some do and sometimes people die.  Same with many other things - and in the USA, same with guns.  There's a moving delineation between laws and rights, and in the USA, that line is much further towards the "rights" end than the "laws" end, compared to most countries.

But it's a subjective thing, not an objective one.

[mtdoc]

No, it is not obvious. Words have meaning (except perhaps to politicians).  Look, if you meant something different than what you said, it's ok to say so.  No reason to pick a fight.

The truth is we have significant gun control in this country now:  background checks, 3 days waiting period, etc.

It's interesting to note that that poll shows that even a few years ago when the assault weapon ban was still in place, the numbers were similar.

I'm not picking a fight - I am just sitting here in incredulity about what you're saying.  When someone says "people who want gun control", you're essentially saying that it means everyone - since I doubt there is a single sane person who thinks a toddler should be able to buy an RPG from a vending machine.

Hyperbole and another straw man.  Gun control means regulation of gun ownership not banning RPGs - of course almost no one would oppose that but lots of people are opposed to the current requirements of background checks and waiting periods. Lots of people are opposed to any limits on gun purchases.  So opposition to gun control - even as it exists now is very strong.

It seems pretty obvious to me that "people who wan't gun control" doesn't include the people who think we should leave gun laws alone or have less gun control, etc. 

Not obvious to most people.  Again See above. Many, many people are opposed to background checks, waiting periods and any sort of gun registration - (and no that doesn't mean they want RPGS to be legal).

But go with whatever rationalization you prefer - the fact is that people who want more gun control just want to ban guns - fact.

No, that is not a fact as you state it. It is a fact that SOME of the people who want more gun control want to ban guns but the polls show it to be just over half.  There are many people (and many gun owners I suspect) who would like to see background checks and waiting periods imposed at gun shows but do not want to ban guns. There are many who want to see limits on the size of magazines but not ban them, etc, etc.  The facts are that there are several proposals to expand gun regulations (often supported by many gun owners) but none to ban them.

You wrote "is simply the hysteria whipped up by the usual 'gun nut' sources

I put quotes around "gun nuts" for a reason as in that is what some people call those who support repeal of current gun control laws and oppose any regulation on gun purchases.   I support gun ownership and even support the right to own an assault rifle (if properly registered, strong background check, etc) and for that some would call me a "gun nut".

The fact remains that the false meme of "those who want gun control really want to ban guns" is used to create fear, and create emotional reactions (i.e. hysteria) in gun owners in order to raise money for the NRA and for right wing political candidates.

The big picture here is that I think we mostly agree on the broad outlines of gun rights.  I am just concerned that the statements about who supports some gun control laws and what that means are accurate (which your original statement was not).  The precise language matters and its the over-generalizations and hyperbole that occur on both sides of the issue (and many other issues)  that cause so much of the dysfunction in our political system.

[SeanB]

Here in SA the laws are making it harder and harder to own a gun legally. However illegal guns are the most common weapon used to commit murder, with most of them coming either from the old arms caches, the police or the Defence force. They lose hundreds of guns, rifles and automatic weapons a year, and ironically most of the members would not be able to own a legal firearm, as they either cannot pass the required testing, have criminal records, or are nutcases.

Was at the scene yesterday, where they went into a shop and shot the place up.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/gang-s-dramatic-durban-shoot-out-1.1892560

[Mechanical Menace]

No, you purposely misunderstood. It's nothing to do with my personal aesthetic leanings. You can't make a toy gun look like a real one in case someone mistakes the toy gun with a real gun. The legal requirements are an orange tip OR a generally colourful appearance. You can make real guns look like toy guns by giving them a colourful appearance* therefore making it impossible to tell if a gun is a toy one or not. Therefore Tamir Rice...

How do you achieve that?  Ban paint, 3D printers/paper-mache and anything that could be used to make a fake gun that looks real?  It's an impossible thing to achieve.

Well seeing as everything is impossible achieve to achieve 100% by that reasoning there's no point in having any laws. Or to bother doing anything at all about anything. I'm not that cynical or nihilistic personally.

The "once is too much" thing is incorrect - if the metric is "if it happens even once, we need to do something", then alcohol has to be banned immediately, along with all pocket knives, chewing gum, most forms of clothes

I wasn't going by the standard of 100% effective but reducing it as much as possible. I'd also say without going too far*. I would honestly say as much as my country has got certain things right I'd say it has gone too far in the other direction and trying to be absolute instead of finding a balance can be just as bad in either direction.


*And I'll admit "too far" is very objective but shall we say where the benefit (say people not dying due to accidents and/or someone who is mentally incapable of handling one responsibly going off on one and/or people getting toys mixed up for the real thing) outweighs the benefit (say people saved by the good guy with the gun and/or just the problem not being so large because the object isn't a total taboo and/or there having to be a consistent standardised way to separate most guns from most gun shaped toys AND just not effecting those who don't fall into the "bad" section)  would be a reasonable place to work out where it is from and aim for to begin with?

[zapta]

Here in SA the laws are making it harder and harder to own a gun legally. However illegal guns are the most common weapon used to commit murder

This outcome even has an off the shelf bumper sticker

[Mechanical Menace]

True, but that policy seemed to work for Hong Kong. Not sure how it works or what the results are now though.

[donotdespisethesnake]

Here in SA the laws are making it harder and harder to own a gun legally. However illegal guns are the most common weapon used to commit murder

This outcome even has an off the shelf bumper sticker

Not even true, the police and army still have guns. You know, people who are at least trained to use them, have a command structure, not like the dumbass "citizen militia" who randomly fire their weapon at things.

[c4757p]

This outcome even has an off the shelf bumper sticker

A ridiculous argument that could be used to argue against any law. I'm all for (responsible) gun ownership, but how about some intelligent arguments for it, instead of this?

[zapta]

A ridiculous argument that could be used to argue against any law.

Yes, it embodies inherently a lot of truth. I will give you this.

[GK]

Rubbish. There is broad public and even majority support in America for many proposed aspects of gun control legislation that we over here take entirely for granted. Under what "varying laws by nationality" unique to the USA make it sane to manufacture and distribute in the 10's of thousands lethal weapons for kiddies (just one possible example amongst many)?

You are proving my point better than anything I could have posted.

You claim that there is an objective standard for guns and there is no room for the USA to have a different standard that doesn't match yours.  That is the definition of arrogance.

I don't think we should be selling beer to 16 year olds in the USA, but if Germany wants to do that, let them.  They have a different culture and the drinking age is subjective.

You think it's "insane" that there are guns designed for children.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with a parent buying a gun for their child.  It's a valid sport, a valid past-time and I know countless kids who learned to shoot with Dad.  To label an entire aspect of culture that you don't share and don't understand as "insane" is just bigotry.

There is a whole a lot wrong with making firearms accessible to children and the moronic culture that celebrates the practice - and that wrong is reflected in the death and injury statistics which America doesn't share with other comparably developed countries.

I also fail to comprehend why someone would need to carry a machine gun into a takeaway restaurant. But I guess that is just pure "arrogance" and "bigotry" on my behalf.




That photo above really cracks me up. I know of a farmer up north that runs around his property authoritatively with a holstered revolver on his hip. Not strictly legal but the local constabulary just roll their eyes and guy is locally known along the lines of that wanker who fancies himself as John Wayne. So we have these sorts over here too, but you Americans take this particular brand of wankerism to a whole new level.
 

[cimmo]

I'm beginning to think that you all just don't like guns. Which is completely fine by me. I respect your right not to keep one.  It would be great if you would respect our rights and traditions in kind.

I'm beginning to think that you all just don't like owning slaves. Which is completely fine by me. I respect your right not to keep one.  It would be great if you would respect our rights and traditions in kind.

- Said by countless Americans once upon a time.
Were they wrong?

[warp_foo]

I'm beginning to think that you all just don't like guns. Which is completely fine by me. I respect your right not to keep one.  It would be great if you would respect our rights and traditions in kind.

I'm beginning to think that you all just don't like slaves. Which is completely fine by me. I respect your right not to keep one.  It would be great if you would respect our rights and traditions in kind.

- Said by countless Americans once upon a time.

Yes, said 152 years ago. Your point? We've moved past that.

To equate gun ownership and slavery is silly. Really, grow the f*ck up.

m

ETA: When you guys stop screwing the Aborigines, you can call out the USA on slavery.

[cimmo]

I'm beginning to think that you all just don't like guns. Which is completely fine by me. I respect your right not to keep one.  It would be great if you would respect our rights and traditions in kind.

I'm beginning to think that you all just don't like slaves. Which is completely fine by me. I respect your right not to keep one.  It would be great if you would respect our rights and traditions in kind.

- Said by countless Americans once upon a time.

Yes, said 152 years ago. Your point? We've move past that.

To equate gun ownership and slavery is silly. Really, grow the f*ck up.

m

So you do agree that those Americans who said "It would be great if you would respect our rights and traditions" with regard to slavery were wrong.

Interesting.
And yet the same argument made to keep your precious lethal weapons is still a perfectly valid argument?

Sounds like a case of double standards to me.
For your sakes, I do hope the issue of gun control is not resolved the same way your country resolved the issue of slavery.

"Because when America farts, the world has to smell it."

[LabSpokane]

My major concern is how you feel about the color scheme.  Is the olive drab on black too flashy and attractive to children?  Does OD have a place on your color wheel, or are earth tones out these days?

Then there is the small matter of rifle dude's handgun missing its magazine.  That's a serious fashion faux pas here.

And what about the guy on the left?  We have a Glock guy hanging with a Sig guy.  Does that make you feel uncomfortable?  It seems kind of icky to me. 

[GK]

My major concern is how you feel about the color scheme.  Is the olive drab on black too flashy and attractive to children?

That's not you is it?

[LabSpokane]

My major concern is how you feel about the color scheme.  Is the olive drab on black too flashy and attractive to children?

That's not you is it?
[/quote]
No, my rifle is pink.  Chicks really dig it.  It's better than going to the park with a puppy.

[LabSpokane]

I'm beginning to think that you all just don't like guns. Which is completely fine by me. I respect your right not to keep one.  It would be great if you would respect our rights and traditions in kind.

I'm beginning to think that you all just don't like owning slaves. Which is completely fine by me. I respect your right not to keep one.  It would be great if you would respect our rights and traditions in kind.

- Said by countless Americans once upon a time.
Were they wrong?

Yes.  If you read a little history we "northern aggressors" said "that's it, no more slavery," then went and kicked their asses over it.  How much more commitment to human rights would you like?

[GK]

Chicks really dig it.

Until they find out what it's compensation for............

[LabSpokane]

Chicks really dig it.

Until they find out what it's compensation for............

That my belt and shoe colors are mismatched?  We Americans are really going to need more guidance from the British Empire if we are ever to achieve the gun fashion nirvana you demand. 

This is what my rifle looks like.  Do you think the kids will like it?  I'm shipping 400,000 of these to Toys R Us to sell for Christmas.

[GK]

Chicks really dig it.

Until they find out what it's compensation for............

That my belt and shoe colors are mismatched?  We Americans are really going to need more guidance from the British Empire if we are ever to achieve the gun fashion nirvana you demand. 

Is this really the best you can do now? 
Bye!

[LabSpokane]

This is me with one of the prototype rifles.  Do my glasses make my Caddy look fat?