Author Topic: Australia data encryption law  (Read 3925 times)

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Online Homer J Simpson

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Online Bud

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2018, 01:38:33 pm »
A better name for it would be Data Decryption Law.
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Offline firewalker

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2018, 01:43:04 pm »
How can they enforce it? I can always install an app that offers encryption.

Alexander.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 
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Online rstofer

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2019, 11:10:30 pm »
Well, it's real now!

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/22/technology/australia-cellphone-encryption-security.html

I don't know how the industry will respond.  If I had to guess, the manufacturers would just quit selling in Australia.  If people want an iPhone, they would have to buy it on some kind of gray market,

The UK is trying the same thing but I haven't been following along.

Furthermore, it doesn't address on-device encryption apps that are installed by the user.  PGP comes to mind.  So even if the phone is hacked, the data is still protected.

Should be fun...
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2019, 01:05:33 am »
A better name for it would be Data Decryption Law.

Yes. This is a nice example of Orwell's "doublethink".
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2019, 01:23:00 am »
It was flawed legislation to 'keep us safe over Christmas' rammed through our Parliament in a total farce on the last sitting day before Christmas.

'THEY' promise to look at it when Parliament resumes in February https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/security/human-rights-watch-raises-concerns-about-australias-cybersecurity-and-surveillance-laws/news-story/99c2655639b22ee821b588e15881f6b3

But don't hold your breath its an Election year  :palm:
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Offline helius

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2019, 01:33:22 am »
So even if the phone is hacked, the data is still protected.
I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. You can't build a castle on sand.
The integrity of each layer in a system depends on everything below it. Once the root of trust is compromised (by x86 AMT, etc) it's game over.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 01:50:07 am by helius »
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2019, 01:46:19 am »
Well, it's real now!
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/22/technology/australia-cellphone-encryption-security.html

Apple should have done that long before. Microsoft did that.
My bitlocker enabled computer reopens a video on Chrome before I log in. That's the best evidence that bitlocker doesn't really lock your data (well, it does, but the key is not properly stored).
Unlike Apple's attitude to FBI's investigation (that California terrorism case), Microsoft bends to all governments across the world.
That's why it's far less boycotted by many countries.

A better name for it would be Data Decryption Law.

They can just save the effort and learn what China did on the same case.
We just don't allow end-to-end encryption. You can do that privately, but no public commercial communication platforms (apps, websites) are allowed to offer such service.
Saves the government's time and taxpayers' money.

How can they enforce it? I can always install an app that offers encryption.

If the government wants to ban something, it will just audit the heck out of whichever company that stands in their way.
There're no perfect companies. Everyone has some minor problems, being tax, OSHA, fire safety, data privacy, etc.
If the government wants to fuck you, it will find a legitimate way to do so.

Want to write your own app? Fine, but as soon as you get into business, the gov't will come back to fuck you.
Want to keep under the radar? Then you will never be able to recover the R&D cost.
So without economic incentive, no one will do so.

BTW, check out the outcome of the author of TrueCrypt. He was a gifted programmer, forcibly and very likely wrongfully given the name as an "international crime lord" and "ISIS supporter".
That's what comes to you if you defy the government. Be wise.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2019, 02:13:30 am »
India too. I have some thoughts on the reasons for all this. You can probably guess what they are.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2019, 02:36:51 am »
You can't escape the matrix.
Of course, it's all for your own good.
 :popcorn:
 
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2019, 03:17:31 am »
That's what comes to you if you defy the government. Be wise.

Be a feeble little pawn, you mean.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2019, 03:24:17 am »
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 03:27:27 am by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2019, 03:33:44 am »
That's what comes to you if you defy the government. Be wise.
Be a feeble little pawn, you mean.

You get much more money, safeness and assurance by helping the strong against the weak than the other way around.
Identify who you are, and pick your teammates wisely.

1% of population depriving the rest 99%, that's what USSR was. Inevitably, the 99% turned the 1% up side down.
What China did very brilliantly was to insert a 9% buffer.
1% directs the rest 9% to deprive the rest 90%. The 9% doesn't get deprived, and even gets a bit cut for controlling the 90% for the 1%.
Therefore, the 1% still gets able to deprive the 90% and get most of the value extracted from them, rest of a bit cut distributed to the 9%.
The 90% on the other hand, has a lot harder time turning against not only the 1%, but also the rest 9%.

For a person with demanded capability, getting into the 9% is very easy. That's how China attracts investments and smart people.
Be the 9%, it's much wiser than trying to fight for the 90%.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 03:53:37 am by blueskull »
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2019, 03:51:30 am »
Right. I forget you don't have morals or feelings of your own, only a need for success.

Ahh, china..
 

Online rstofer

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2019, 04:01:28 am »
If we can't have end to end encryption, e-commerce is right out the window.
 
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Online beanflying

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2019, 04:01:39 am »
The Fact China is a police state sure as hell doesn't mean I want to live in one here. China has the balance WRONG as it 'assumes' there is wrong doing and the government has the right to investigate ALL regardless!

Forced decryption with NO (currently) judicial or any proper oversight is so far away from where this legislation NEEDS to be and in the year of kissing babies and smokescreens to hide other failures we will be likely stuck with this garbage act for a fair while to come. Neither side will want to appear 'weak' and reduce apparent security measures lest they be labeled as such by the other side.

Welcome to the Australian political farce adding to the Year of Trump and Brexit  :palm:
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2019, 04:04:22 am »
Right. I forget you don't have morals or feelings of your own, only a need for success.

If the people are happy, why not? Chinese people are just by nature competitive.
A competitive environment with good reward system is what we want.

Make your own life better by your hard work. No matter for whom.
I don't care if I work for USA making nukes against China, or I work for China recreating Soviet Union.
If I get my own life better and I take care of my own business, I'm all good.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2019, 04:06:04 am »
If we can't have end to end encryption, e-commerce is right out the window.

Except that root CA issuers may have already been compromised by governments. They can easily mount an MitM attack without you knowing.
China has compromised CNNIC, and I believe the five eyes have done the same to major western CAs.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2019, 04:12:31 am »
CAs are a central point of failure and politically open to manipulation. I'd honestly be quite surprised if those weren't comprised in some way. What most governments are after now is local and end-to-end encryption without some central controlling part, for what seem to be obvious reasons. If you can't control it, you don't want it. At least that's how the powers that be look at it. Apparently centuries of civilisation without that amount of control was a mistake. Governments need to know every last secret, for your own protection.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2019, 04:17:57 am »
Forced decryption with NO (currently) judicial or any proper oversight is so far away from where this legislation NEEDS to be and in the year of kissing babies and smokescreens to hide other failures we will be likely stuck with this garbage act for a fair while to come.

Because free speech is inherently flawed. Look at the stupid leftist shits happening in US. The SJWs, the sovereign citizens, and the reverse racists.

The government should protect its citizens. There's nothing wrong about it. Yet the shitty country can't reach to an agreement on building the fucking wall.

America should realize that people are not born equal. They want to police the world and coerce everyone to obey, yet they don't agree Mexican lives are worth less than American lives.

It's a sensitive topic, and I'm fully aware of it. But fact is fact. Doing such only shows nothing but hypocrisy.

Even not being American, I'm so glad I donated $50 to Brian Kolfage. If not prohibited by the laws, I would donate another $50 to Dumpty Trump.

I did it not for supporting Dumpty Trump, just to show my attitude that laws are absolute authoritative.
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2019, 04:37:12 am »
This is not a free speech issue so don't introduce that as some sort of defense. This is an Australian issue at present and has nothing 'directly' to do with the USA.

Government forced release of encrypted data with no oversight is gross overreach and undermines this countries ability to do Business in a global market. It allows in a cynical case our Government to force the release of commercial in confidence data being transferred in relation to trade or contract negotiations with no oversight be that government to government or company to government.

The security and terrorism excuse is a minuscule fraction of what this bullshit can do in it's current form.
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2019, 04:38:24 am »
Because free speech is inherently flawed. Look at the stupid leftist shits happening in US. The SJWs, the sovereign citizens, and the reverse racists.

The government should protect its citizens. There's nothing wrong about it. Yet the shitty country can't reach to an agreement on building the fucking wall.

America should realize that people are not born equal. They want to police the world and coerce everyone to obey, yet they don't agree Mexican lives are worth less than American lives.

It's a sensitive topic, and I'm fully aware of it. But fact is fact. Doing such only shows nothing but hypocrisy.

And right there you've crossed over a line you can't uncross. Congratulations, and kindly fuck off.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2019, 04:44:17 am »
It allows in a cynical case our Government to force the release of commercial in confidence data being transferred in relation to trade or contract negotiations with no oversight be that government to government or company to government.

Attacking AES at this moment is very expensive. The resource will not be used against people without a "tag" on them.
And, you will be stupid if you don't encrypt your important data with a very long pre-shared key.

Besides it's not only the government. Everyone in your communication chain can intercept your data.
E-waste recyclers, ISPs, users on the same LAN, you name it.

The law only allows AU government to do it legally, but it was done illegally by many for a long time.
It simply makes government's life easier. If you are not tagged, you won't be analyzed anyway. If you are tagged, the DA will get a warranty anyway.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2019, 04:49:10 am »
And right there you've crossed over a line you can't uncross. Congratulations, and kindly fuck off.

Enlighten me.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2019, 05:20:30 am »
And right there you've crossed over a line you can't uncross. Congratulations, and kindly fuck off.
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Offline soldar

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2019, 09:01:49 am »
When you enter the UK there are signs letting you know you are under the obligation to reveal passwords to any computer or other device and refusal will land you in jail. It's known as "Rubber-Hose Cryptanalysis".

The notion that morality has anything to do with governments is laughable. Morality is just whatever rules allow us to do what we want to do and prevent others from doing what they want to do. If we want to do it then it is moral and we will twist our "reasoning" so we can arrive at the foreordained conclusion.
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Offline cdev

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2019, 12:54:21 am »
Every crime statistic I've seen in years indicates that crime in most places is falling.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2019, 01:39:38 am »
Every crime statistic I've seen in years indicates that crime in most places is falling.
It is. The world is safer than ever in pretty much every relevant aspect and metric. However, the increased availability of news gives the horrors of the world much more exposure. It seems this is exacerbated by people who utilize this to gain support for their political agenda. Fear is a powerful motivator.
 
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Online beanflying

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2019, 01:46:47 am »
Yep the news cycle is NOW and by anyone with a smart phone is a reporter (unless blocked or suppressed by the government of that country ::) ).

Seems India thinks our Farce is on a winner too  :palm: http://www.mydigitalfc.com/fc-weekend/privacy-vs-snooping
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Offline cdev

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2019, 03:10:31 am »
Censorship is more extensive on the Internet now than it ever was. There is a growing amount of milieu control.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 03:25:05 am by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2019, 03:19:01 am »
I just finished reading "Darkness at Noon" by Arthur Koestler. Its a gripping book.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 03:25:58 am by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2019, 06:22:14 am »
I don't mind logging them in and being present during the "search" to prove I am innocent (if it doesn't contain personal stuff not belonging to me) but I wouldn't want to give out passwords to use behind my back especially when not present as it defeats the whole purpose of what they're for.
 

Online Electro Detective

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2019, 08:34:00 am »
Right. I forget you don't have morals or feelings of your own, only a need for success.

If the people are happy, why not? Chinese people are just by nature competitive.
A competitive environment with good reward system is what we want.

Make your own life better by your hard work. No matter for whom.
I don't care if I work for USA making nukes against China, or I work for China recreating Soviet Union.
If I get my own life better and I take care of my own business, I'm all good.


Any other Chinese people follow this type of sellout SELFISH BS that borders on fifth column/treason activity??  :--

If you do, it can get ugly in Australia once the friendly non racist locals wise up and decide to look after numero uno

just sayin...   :popcorn:


 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2019, 09:12:13 am »
Any other Chinese people follow this type of sellout SELFISH BS that borders on fifth column/treason activity??  :--

I'm currently not living in China, and I'm not bound by Chinese law.
And as a matter of fact, I AM working under funds from US Army Research Lab, though it's a non-classified, non-military project.

Since I'm not bound by NDA from ARL either, I can legally work for a Chinese boss in the future, and I can publish all my works done for ARL (well, I must, as part of deliverable).
And of course, Chinese companies also want to hire people worked abroad, preferably on high end projects.

Not many Chinese people are patriots. We love our country, simply because it offers what we need. And of course we do have some reserve.
It's not uncommon for Chinese people to mutually use the government to extract values from average people, and in the meantime transfer their own money away from the communist party.

And there is a reason why Chinese government has a political hatred towards the west. It simply makes many things simple for the top rich people.
Imagine, if China is friendly to the west, then China will have a harmonized international policing and auditing system.
Then that means the top rich Chinese people can't conceal their wealth in a western bank, and a wealthy Chinese people living abroad can't conceal their income in China vise versa.
China is safer than Swiss banks in certain degree, and those rich people with access to international banking resource would like to keep it.
The same rule applies to trade. We don't enforce harmonized customs and international quality standards, because our rich people do want to make a cut from arbitraging internationally.

It's not a state secret, though Chinese government doesn't admit it.
Brute force works for the mass, but it never works for the powerful people. Chinese government is not stupid. That's why it has the policy that bribes the strong, and suppresses the weak.

If you do, it can get ugly in Australia once the friendly non racist locals wise up and decide to look after numero uno

Do what?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 09:14:03 am by blueskull »
 
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Online Electro Detective

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2019, 09:44:20 am »

Probably stop buying product dumps from China and get it from another country/nation that's less brainwashed and racist.

If we all had and or clung to that attitude that you sport, life would soon turn to sh!t for everyone everywhere.

Tell your controllers to go F themselves and move on to a better life mate   :-+

Without people like you supporting them, they can hit the streets and beg for food,
as non working class and shifty scammers eventually resort to.

They are just using you by making you feel important, superior and convincing you that's how life works

Been there, that's how their bank accounts and pockets 'work',
while they throw you a back pat and bone
and or discard you when a younger aggressive new blood comes crawling in to fill your shoes

you get shown the NLR door, and the silly cycle repeats...  :palm: :palm:




 

 
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2019, 09:16:56 am »
And there is a reason why Chinese government has a political hatred towards the west. It simply makes many things simple for the top rich people.
Imagine, if China is friendly to the west, then China will have a harmonized international policing and auditing system.
Then that means the top rich Chinese people can't conceal their wealth in a western bank, and a wealthy Chinese people living abroad can't conceal their income in China vise versa.
China is safer than Swiss banks in certain degree, and those rich people with access to international banking resource would like to keep it.
The same rule applies to trade. We don't enforce harmonized customs and international quality standards, because our rich people do want to make a cut from arbitraging internationally.
All this is conspiracy nonsense but I specially want to point out that China is part of the Common Reporting Standard and does share bank accounts information with all other countries part of that system which includes all developed countries.
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2019, 05:57:03 pm »
This sets a scary precedent.  I know the states have been wanting to do this for a while now.  I'm sure all the 5 eyes would be in for it too.  Guessing they would only allow corporations and government to use it and not the average person.  Wonder what that would mean for HTTPS, would it be illegal to host a site using HTTPS unless you have a special license?  I could see them do that.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2019, 06:09:43 pm »
This sets a scary precedent.  I know the states have been wanting to do this for a while now.  I'm sure all the 5 eyes would be in for it too.  Guessing they would only allow corporations and government to use it and not the average person.  Wonder what that would mean for HTTPS, would it be illegal to host a site using HTTPS unless you have a special license?  I could see them do that.
The speculation is that this gives the other five eyes access too. Remember that they exchange information and most western companies have a presence in Australia.
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2019, 10:35:18 pm »
Quote
However, cyber-security experts say it's not possible to create a "back door" decryption that would safely target just one person.

"Any vulnerability would just weaken the existing encryption scheme, affecting security overall for innocent people," said Dr Chris Culnane from the University of Melbourne.

Such a "security hole" could then be abused or exploited by criminals, he said.

Didn't the NSA try that years ago:
https://www.engadget.com/2016/08/21/nsa-technique-for-cisco-spying/

and they were were suspected of meddling with Cisco routers:
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/cisco-help-customers-avoid-nsa-interception-by-shipping-equipment-empty-houses-1492704
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2019, 11:12:34 pm »
I am sure the NSA and our ASIO/DSD have already been doing it by stealth for years along with a lot of other private companies and governments. Keep China out of this topic too if possible ::)

It is the 'forced' and 'mandatory' nature of this legislation that is worrying in particular if it remains with no limited or zero oversight provisions. When the decryption is known by Australia you can be assured it will be known by others too. The arguments of some 'if you have nothing to hide then you shouldn't have a problem with ...' are deluded fools as their privacy is eroded.
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Offline raptor1956

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2019, 01:16:23 am »
If we can't have end to end encryption, e-commerce is right out the window.

Except that root CA issuers may have already been compromised by governments. They can easily mount an MitM attack without you knowing.
China has compromised CNNIC, and I believe the five eyes have done the same to major western CAs.

That is probably true and if true certainly bad, but the real threat is cyber-crime which is already an order of magnitude more significant than the totality of street crime reported on the news everyday and estimate are that it will reach $6T by 2021 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/theyec/2017/07/13/the-true-cost-of-cybercrime-for-businesses/#22a95d9c4947).

Now, I'm not sure if I buy the $6T number but surely reducing security will only make cyber crime easier and more prevalent. 


Brian
 

Offline apis

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2019, 03:36:18 am »
When you enter the UK there are signs letting you know you are under the obligation to reveal passwords to any computer or other device and refusal will land you in jail. It's known as "Rubber-Hose Cryptanalysis".

The notion that morality has anything to do with governments is laughable. Morality is just whatever rules allow us to do what we want to do and prevent others from doing what they want to do. If we want to do it then it is moral and we will twist our "reasoning" so we can arrive at the foreordained conclusion.
Moral rules is not whatever rules are convenient for the moment. Morals are rules that are completely necessary for a functioning society/groups, they have been sharpened by evolution over millennia. There are lots of experiments that show that other social animals also have a concept of morals and they are often similar to our own. If people cooperate everyone benefits, if people act like sociopaths every one looses, so we reward social behaviour and sanction antisocial behaviour, it's something completely rational and necessary. That said, some people clearly have a twisted idea of what is moral and not so it's up to debate what can be considered moral.

What you describe is a form of psychological defence mechanism called rationalising: "when the individual deals with emotional conflict or internal or external stressors by concealing the true motivations for his or her own thoughts, actions, or feelings through the elaboration of reassuring or self serving but incorrect explanations".
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2019, 05:02:31 am »
If people cooperate everyone benefits <snip>.

Until someone breaks the rule and gains extras from it.
There is gotta be some punishments saying if you break the rule, you get fucked.
That's what laws are.
Inevitably, with laws, there are wrongfully convicted victims.
Therefore, laws are relaxed from moral standard.
Thus, there are smart people weaseling between moral and laws to gain extras.
Those people will always win, until "innocent until proven guilty" gets abolished.
 
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Offline apis

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2019, 06:18:42 am »
Until someone breaks the rule and gains extras from it.
There is gotta be some punishments saying if you break the rule, you get fucked.
That's what laws are.
Laws make up a system that regulates and ensures that individuals or a community adhere to the will of the state.
If the state wants a well functioning society with people who are happy and cooperate then the laws should reward social behaviour and sanction antisocial behaviour. But there is nothing that says that laws have to do that, nor are they limited to encourage people to behave morally. So laws are not the same as morals at all, but there is often a relation, since you can't have to much antisocial behaviour or society would collapse.

Inevitably, with laws, there are wrongfully convicted victims.
Therefore, laws are relaxed from moral standard.
Thus, there are smart people weaseling between moral and laws to gain extras.
Those people will always win, until "innocent until proven guilty" gets abolished.
There are those who act antisocially and some get away with it. Ideally you would want to catch and sanction everyone that acts immorally. But the justice system is far from perfect, 'innocent until proven guilty' is a good principle that prevents people from being sanctioned incorrectly, since that is considered more harmful to society than the alternative. But remember: the law isn't the same as morals, so it could also be the law that is wrong or the state that is acting immorally. As everyone knows, there are many states where the people in power only care about enriching themselves. You really need checks and balances that ensure the people with power aren't acting immorally themselves, or else you have a recipe for disaster.
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2019, 06:40:53 am »
Those people will always win, until "innocent until proven guilty" gets abolished.

You are continuing to be WAY OFF TOPIC and your propping up of Chinese goverment dogma and propaganda is more than annoying! I have kept this 'polite' but if you want to continue it won't remain that way. Got collect your $0.50 on youtube
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2019, 07:03:51 am »
But the justice system is far from perfect, 'innocent until proven guilty' is a good principle that prevents people from being sanctioned incorrectly, since that is considered more harmful to society than the alternative.

Exactly. Since we are talking civilized modern society, you can't just sanction a person without basis from law. That's why laws are always open to be exploited.

No idea if you are trolling, or you are payed by the Chinese government, or you are just a despicable person.

I have no empathy to certain people. My sympathy is only for my own interest -- to keep certain people from unresting.
This is BTW exactly how democracy is in China. In China, everyone works for the government, one way or another.
In return, the government keeps everyone with certain level of democracy, only for serving the high lives better.
It's a fair system as any vicious predators can step into the circle of high lives as long as they are willing to step on bodies.
An ideal efficient society should have no democracy besides social safety net, which is only used to stabilize the society.

People should have the self awareness that though people are supposedly born equal, people are not equal after birth.
Social hierarchy exists, and it is nothing secret.
Every country has it, and whether the people recognize it or not is the difference between consciousness and hypocrisy.

I know I will never get along with western culture, so I'm leaving.
I will be happily working in eastern Asia, be it China, Japan or Korea. Both have one in common -- bosses are absolute authority.
I can live in such an environment, no matter be the one being stepped on or the one stepping on the others.

You are continuing to be WAY OFF TOPIC and your propping up of Chinese goverment dogma and propaganda is more than annoying! I have kept this 'polite' but if you want to continue it won't remain that way. Got collect your $0.50 on youtube

Being someone who loves exploiting things, I don't want "innocent until proven guilty" to be abolished at all!
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2019, 07:06:58 am »
Probably stop buying product dumps from China and get it from another country/nation that's less brainwashed and racist.
If we all had and or clung to that attitude that you sport, life would soon turn to sh!t for everyone everywhere.

You never win fighting free market. Everything versus money, money wins, all the time.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2019, 07:16:09 am »
China is part of the Common Reporting Standard and does share bank accounts information with all other countries part of that system which includes all developed countries.

Only starting in 2018. As a result, Chinese government busted a few actors and actresses dodging mainland income tax in Hong Kong.

Before that, if Chinese government wanted to run a bank checking on someone living abroad, Chinese government will have to convince interpol.

And political offenses and several other offenses are not being cooperated by foreign banks anyway. The system only worked before 2018 for corrupted government officers concealing their wealth abroad.

It's getting worse since 2018, and that's true.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 07:17:55 am by blueskull »
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2019, 08:14:20 am »
@ Blueskull kindly delete your last posts and !@#$ OFF this thread!  :rant:

Signed the other 99% of us.
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2019, 08:24:04 am »
Signed the other 99% of us.

Who the !@#$ do you think you are?
 

Online Electro Detective

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2019, 09:17:52 am »

At least blueskull is straight up, be he/she wrong, right, manipulated, confused, whatever the deal is  :-// 

unlike a LOT of two faced 'troll callers' that are not short of hypocricy/hypocracy/hippocracy  ::)

 
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2019, 09:20:03 am »
At least blueskull is straight up, be he/she wrong, right, manipulated, confused, whatever the deal is  :-// 

I'm not manipulated at all. I'm just a deep believer of elitism and social Darwinism.
I'm straight up. If I do FU, I say FU. I don't pat you on your back and actually FU.
 
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Online beanflying

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2019, 09:25:12 am »

At least blueskull is straight up, be he/she wrong, right, manipulated, confused, whatever the deal is  :-// 

unlike a LOT of two faced 'troll callers' that are not short of hypocricy/hypocracy/hippocracy  ::)

His Very first post in this thread days ago was all about what CHINA does to enforce it's police state. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/australia-data-encryption-law/msg2141260/#msg2141260

HE HAS BEEN OFF TOPIC EVER SINCE!

Signed the other 99% of us.

Who the !@#$ do you think you are?

An Australian you tosser and this flawed legislation effects MY COUNTRY and has nothing to do with yours and your twisted morals!
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2019, 09:31:31 am »
An Australian you tosser and this flawed legislation effects MY COUNTRY and has nothing to do with yours and your twisted morals!

Since this is part of the five eyes thing, why don't you go to F uncle Sam and get yourself erased?
 

Online Electro Detective

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2019, 09:35:22 am »

China produces the phones that these data encryption laws will be implemented on.

blueskull is politely telling us to smell the coffee    :popcorn:

 
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Online beanflying

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2019, 09:43:50 am »
This is far more than just phones as you are I am sure well aware of. More chance of the Chinese Government hacking us illegally to protect their own 'state security' than any information we are likely to get off decrypted phones of Chinese origin even if those companies will hand over that data.

Blueskull has yet again twisted a thread as some sort of perverse defense of the Chinese State Machine which this thread is not about.

So politely or not he can take a running jump.
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Online Electro Detective

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2019, 09:57:17 am »
blueskull is collateral damage for westerner investor scum taking their/our industries over there,

and making those countries work for stale rice pay, for a better 'future' in a 'competitive' global market >   :palm:


Hang it on the local bean counters that created and manipulate the mess, not blueskull and agro peers gabbing away nasty on the internet





 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 10:04:24 am by Electro Detective »
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2019, 08:59:59 pm »
This is far more than just phones as you are I am sure well aware of. More chance of the Chinese Government hacking us illegally to protect their own 'state security' than any information we are likely to get off decrypted phones of Chinese origin even if those companies will hand over that data.

If requested by the five eyes, China at most will have a backdoor that allow China be the sixth eye. The five eyes will already have access to whatever backdoor they request Chinese phone makers to put in.
And in case you don't know, the topic of this thread is not about phones at all. It's about to legalize governments to decrypt communication without the peers' consent.

blueskull is collateral damage for westerner investor scum taking their/our industries over there,

No. I support western companies to move to China, and I also support Chinese companies to move to the rest.
Globalization breaks wealth gap and standard gap. It promotes a more equal and fair competition.
In other words, global competition without boarders as barriers promotes social Darwinism, which is my political belief.
 

Offline apis

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2019, 09:15:00 pm »
I don't think (hope) you understand what is meant by social Darwinism. ??? :-\
It got to be the dumbest of all the dumb ideas from the 19th century.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2019, 09:34:18 pm »
I don't think (hope) you understand what is meant by social Darwinism. ??? :-\
It got to be the dumbest of all the dumb ideas from the 19th century.

Put it simple, PUBG.
 

Offline apis

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2019, 09:55:20 pm »
I have no idea what is meant by PUBG?

 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2019, 10:13:12 pm »
I have no idea what is meant by PUBG?

He means a game where lots and lots of people work very hard to enjoy themselves and a precious few cunts destroy for everyone it by blatantly cheating.

China, in other words - figuratively and literally.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2019, 10:26:15 pm »
I have no idea what is meant by PUBG?

He means a game where lots and lots of people work very hard to enjoy themselves and a precious few cunts destroy for everyone it by blatantly cheating.

China, in other words - figuratively and literally.

No. I meant the game mode itself. Only one can live, stepping on the others' bodies.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2019, 11:10:25 pm »
No. I meant the game mode itself. Only one can live, stepping on the others' bodies.
You'd think the concept of cooperation would be more ingrained in someone coming from a country with close to 1.5 billion people. Even before we migrated from the plains of Africa, cooperation has been what made our species tick and successful. That's unlikely to change any time soon.
 
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2019, 11:15:45 pm »
No. I meant the game mode itself. Only one can live, stepping on the others' bodies.
You'd think the concept of cooperation would be more ingrained in someone coming from a country with close to 1.5 billion people. Even before we migrated from the plains of Africa, cooperation has been what made our species tick and successful. That's unlikely to change any time soon.

Cooperation is necessary, just as competition is important.
Cooperation is not fueled by the good of ones heart. It is fueled by the necessity to tackle bugger targets.

Cooperation will not go away anytime soon, but as technology develops and dependency between people reduces, competition will be more and more prevalent.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2019, 12:31:30 am »
Hard to say. I think one of the things people are realizing now is an awful lot like the opposite of that, that life is not a zero sum game.

Have you ever heard of the "Overton Window" ? Right wingers are trying to shift people's idea of what is okay to the right. By sleazy methods. We shouldn't fall for it.

What do I mean? let me give you an example, a few years ago I was pointed to this interesting article which was at the time popular with people in the advertising and PR industry, I was told, to read it if I wanted to know how they thought. Evidently they think we are a lot like cockroaches in some respects. (I disagree with this, but it does explain the social network bot phenomenon)

 Anyway, I think that now since jobs are becoming scarcer, I think that engaging in a race to the bottom is a mistake. I know that goes against established dogma, but we have to think of karma, rather than dogma.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 02:06:26 am by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline mc172

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2019, 01:54:46 am »
I'm proper confused by this thread! Reads like something the KKK would put together but against Chinese people. Kinda like: Blueskull has got a foreign-looking flag set as his country, let's have him! :scared: :scared:

Right. I forget you don't have morals or feelings of your own, only a need for success.

If the people are happy, why not? Chinese people are just by nature competitive.
A competitive environment with good reward system is what we want.

Make your own life better by your hard work. No matter for whom.
I don't care if I work for USA making nukes against China, or I work for China recreating Soviet Union.
If I get my own life better and I take care of my own business, I'm all good.


Any other Chinese people follow this type of sellout SELFISH BS that borders on fifth column/treason activity??  :--


Er, yeah, I'm 100% British and I agree with the guy, don't know the guy, but he's speaking sense. Dafuq is your problem?

@ Blueskull kindly delete your last posts and !@#$ OFF this thread!  :rant:

Signed the other 99% of us.

How about you go and play with traffic you bellend? You been reading up on those radical papers again?

When did the Strayans become so pro Trump?

I really can't believe how fast this escalated!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 01:59:38 am by mc172 »
 
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Offline mc172

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2019, 02:02:12 am »
Regarding the original subject, rather than a load of verging on Nazi bollocks, it's really scary. It's the start of what is to come, I fear. Over here in the EU (which we are still a part of), the Article 13 nightmare looms over us, which is somewhat related in the sense that lawmakers/politicians coming up with these amazing ideas have got no idea what they're talking about. Not good.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2019, 02:08:09 am »
We can't hug our children with nuclear arms. Corny, I know. But true.

It takes children to raze a village. So let's grow up.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2019, 02:22:06 am »
I'm proper confused by this thread! Reads like something the KKK would put together but against Chinese people. Kinda like: Blueskull has got a foreign-looking flag set as his country, let's have him! :scared: :scared:

Right. I forget you don't have morals or feelings of your own, only a need for success.

If the people are happy, why not? Chinese people are just by nature competitive.
A competitive environment with good reward system is what we want.

Make your own life better by your hard work. No matter for whom.
I don't care if I work for USA making nukes against China, or I work for China recreating Soviet Union.
If I get my own life better and I take care of my own business, I'm all good.


Any other Chinese people follow this type of sellout SELFISH BS that borders on fifth column/treason activity??  :--


Er, yeah, I'm 100% British and I agree with the guy, don't know the guy, but he's speaking sense. Dafuq is your problem?

@ Blueskull kindly delete your last posts and !@#$ OFF this thread!  :rant:

Signed the other 99% of us.

How about you go and play with traffic you bellend? You been reading up on those radical papers again?

When did the Strayans become so pro Trump?

I really can't believe how fast this escalated!

What radical papers? About as radical as I get is watching mainstream news on TV and generally our ABC or SBS as they have the least bias.

As this is your first post in this thread is to name call me then you can go place your own ballend where it fits and I am sure it would only need a very tiny space! I am actually far more offended by you calling me Pro Trump :wtf: is that going to be the new insult for 2019?

If you bothered to read what has been said by BlueSkull in its entirety here and the pro chinese ideals and propaganda he keeps spouting you might have half a clue as to why I am pissed off. We are NOT china and we DONT want to become like China and accept the governments will OR ELSE!

This piece of bullshit flawed legislation puts us closer to a police state with no oversight and having anyone try and say it's ok regardless of flag is seriously out of order as it 'currently' doesn't effect them but it likely will is we allow it to stand in it's current form. India is heading that way China is a lost cause and if it sticks here the UK, USA and anyone else we have ties with is getting it too. Without oversight provisions (minimum) and major rewording it is bordering on unlawful if it were pushed to the high court.

To say it is ok because in my country because it 'protects' everyone by allowing spying on all is absolute bullshit and has NO place in a western democracy it is only allowed in totalitarian regimes because if you speak up about it you 'disappear'.

So much of the content of this thread is OFF TOPIC.
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2019, 02:31:29 am »
Who said the "no oversight" part? Government power without oversight is certainly democracy crisis.

What I promote is that governments should have power over the people, but in the other way around, the people should have oversight over the government.
 

Offline mc172

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #71 on: January 27, 2019, 02:43:52 am »
<snip>

loads of bollocks

</snip>

You're beyond help mate.
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #72 on: January 27, 2019, 02:46:08 am »
Which if you even tried to read or understand what this legislation DOESN'T have is just that it has NO limits or oversight other than by the government. And our Government elected by the people and damm well should govern for the people which is clearly isn't in this case.

https://www.cpomagazine.com/cyber-security/controversial-encryption-laws-in-australia-could-set-dangerous-worldwide-precedent/
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Online beanflying

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #73 on: January 27, 2019, 02:48:09 am »
<snip>

loads of bollocks

</snip>

You're beyond help mate.

Calling me mate after calling me a ballend would get you a punch in the nose in this country  :box: Feel free to continue the insults I am more than up to trolls with nothing constructive to add to the discussion.
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #74 on: January 27, 2019, 02:50:52 am »
Which if you even tried to read or understand what this legislation DOESN'T have is just that it has NO limits or oversight other than by the government. And our Government elected by the people and damm well should govern for the people which is clearly isn't in this case.

https://www.cpomagazine.com/cyber-security/controversial-encryption-laws-in-australia-could-set-dangerous-worldwide-precedent/

It.only takes one cybercop to step out to blow the entire conspiracy if there is one.

And, what do you think IA does?

Also, being a cop, one is also a people of the country. As long as there is a single non corrupted cop in the team, there will be supervision.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #75 on: January 27, 2019, 02:51:00 am »
I'd really like for this topic to get back on track - and stay civil.  Unfortunately, it is inescapably tied to politics, which does not bode well.
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #76 on: January 27, 2019, 03:42:04 am »
They can just save the effort and learn what China did on the same case.
We just don't allow end-to-end encryption. You can do that privately, but no public commercial communication platforms (apps, websites) are allowed to offer such service.
Saves the government's time and taxpayers' money.
.......
That's what comes to you if you defy the government. Be wise.

Please let me know how this statement doesn't conflict with what I think you are meaning here in this statement?

It.only takes one cybercop to step out to blow the entire conspiracy if there is one.

And, what do you think IA does?

Also, being a cop, one is also a people of the country. As long as there is a single non corrupted cop in the team, there will be supervision.

One one hand you say it is done for the people and it should be accepted without question at peril to the citizens and then you are now saying for 'one' person to stand up for the majority?

and then this?

What I promote is that governments should have power over the people, but in the other way around, the people should have oversight over the government.

I am not sure what you really think or if you in fact know? You seem to say one should stand up but not stand up in case you get into trouble? Then the last quote of yours you say the people should have a say in what the government does and acts most certainly not how China works so what do you actually believe in Freedom or Totalitarianism or just simply shut up and take what the State says is correct?

Government cloak and dagger is a fact of life in all countries and in this current time those of us in Western Democracies for their failings can stand up and say NO without being put in jail and generally whistle blowers get heard at a minimum. This legislation turning us toward the Chinese style on internet surveillance is out of order and allows our Federal Government to do what it likes 'legally' (questionable) to surveil anyone it wants to in the electronic sense without any oversight.

This is 'Democracy in Crisis' and it is a problem if it is allowed to stand.
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #77 on: January 27, 2019, 04:03:11 am »
Please let me know how this statement doesn't conflict with what I think you are meaning here in this statement?

One one hand you say it is done for the people and it should be accepted without question at peril to the citizens and then you are now saying for 'one' person to stand up for the majority?

I am not sure what you really think or if you in fact know? You seem to say one should stand up but not stand up in case you get into trouble? Then the last quote of yours you say the people should have a say in what the government does and acts most certainly not how China works so what do you actually believe in Freedom or Totalitarianism or just simply shut up and take what the State says is correct?

Government cloak and dagger is a fact of life in all countries and in this current time those of us in Western Democracies for their failings can stand up and say NO without being put in jail and generally whistle blowers get heard at a minimum. This legislation turning us toward the Chinese style on internet surveillance is out of order and allows our Federal Government to do what it likes 'legally' (questionable) to surveil anyone it wants to in the electronic sense without any oversight.

This is 'Democracy in Crisis' and it is a problem if it is allowed to stand.

Put it simple, shut up and make big money (quoted from former Chinese president Jiang).

If my own interest is invaded, and my gain expectancy if I speak out outweighs my loss expectancy, then I speak out.

If not, why would I bother getting myself into troubles?

If I see other people's interest being invaded, I evaluate the situation.

Will I be the next in foreseeable future? If so, I will do the same loss weighing thing.

If not, I will see if I can put my self on the benefacted side of the scale, if so, I go for it.

If not, I keep my silence.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #78 on: January 27, 2019, 04:50:58 am »
According to the Globalization Trilemma

"democracy, national sovereignty and global economic integration are mutually incompatible: we can combine any two of the three, but never have all three simultaneously and in full."

This is not disputed, everybody seems to agree its true. Even the Davos folk write about it on their web site.

So it seems we got hyperglobalization and lost the democracy, somewhere along the road, was it taken? I don't remember ever voting for this hyperglobalization thing. Did any of you?

So we ALL have this problem, lack of legitimacy of the things that are being done. Seems to me it is, anyway.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline apis

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Re: Australia data encryption law
« Reply #79 on: January 27, 2019, 05:45:50 am »
So it seems we got hyperglobalization and lost the democracy, somewhere along the road, was it taken? I don't remember ever voting for this hyperglobalization thing. Did any of you?
Maybe people didn't vote for globalisation but people certainly have been voting for the politicians promoting it, it wasn't called hyperglobalisation and it wasn't mentioned much so maybe they just didn't understand what was going on. But it's not like it's been a big secret either. A lot of political issues never gets mentioned in the media but they still get debated in the parliaments and different political parties have different opinions about them. People have been voting for big business interests for a long time, and globalisation has been a long time goal for multinational corporations since it's more profitable for them. Like free trade agreement and the Investor-state dispute settlement mechanisms, there are politicians that oppose it but it's generally not the ones the majority votes for.
 


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