Author Topic: Australian Engineers Registration Act?  (Read 8301 times)

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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2021, 06:22:57 am »
I don't think you grasp my meaning.  It will be hard to draft legislation that will have any impact on his work as long as he doesn't use the word engineering... literally I expect.  That's how it is in Texas.  No restriction on the work being done, just on using the title Engineer.  I have a masters degree in EE.  But I can't call myself an engineer or offer to do engineering work in Texas.  I can do all the design work I want, just not with the name "engineer". 

I find it uniquely two faced to say an person can't work as an engineer without meeting the requirements... but companies can hire people who are not registered and let them do "engineering" for the company.  I wonder if that extends to contract work where you work for an agency that hires you out?  Technically you work for them so in that case you might not need to be registered if the company is.  Strange.  This only makes sense to a politician.

Do people in Australia have any more say in government than we do in the states?  I expect this is something that was pushed by companies and has no impact on the typical person, so it sailed through government.
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2021, 06:44:43 am »
Have a read of the links from the thread. Giving 'Professional Engineering advice in certain Engineering Fields' is the issue not what you call yourself. If you don't meet the STATE government regs and have bit of paper of approval then you cant give that advice. To get that bit of paper you need to be a Qualified Engineer, in Oz like most of the world this is a four year Degree. There is no ambiguity here this is one follows the other.

This was not driven by Companies but as stated it does have the Support of the peak Engineering body in the country. That is also not to say Companies did not have input into the consultation process but they from the outside were not the driver of this legislation.
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Offline Someone

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2021, 06:52:27 am »
Do people in Australia have any more say in government than we do in the states?
Much less say, we don't see direct voting/ballot measures/referendums. Also many of the politicians at local/state level are "party" stooges who just vote with what their respective parties internal power systems dictate.
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2021, 07:09:13 am »
We also don't have as many  :bullshit: Lobbyists with perceived power pushing agendas either in this country ;) There doesn't seem to be anything partisan or even that political at play here and the chat fest has been going on for a few years before it became legislation so nothing rushed or rammed through that I can see.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2021, 07:17:04 am »
I fail to see anything here that is an issue other than providing 'professional Engineering services' when not being qualified and registered. There is nothing in the proposed regs stopping anyone from developing X product.

Watch the stream were he reads the regs. It's hard to not interpret any sort of even basaic electroncis design work as being that of a "professional engineering service". Like even designing a 555 LED flasher.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2021, 07:18:58 am »
This was not driven by Companies but as stated it does have the Support of the peak Engineering body in the country.

And that enginering body has traditionally little to nothing to do with electronics design in this country. Which is why hardly anyone in electronics engineering is a member of Engineers Australia.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2021, 07:23:56 am »
I find it uniquely two faced to say an person can't work as an engineer without meeting the requirements... but companies can hire people who are not registered and let them do "engineering" for the company.  I wonder if that extends to contract work where you work for an agency that hires you out?  Technically you work for them so in that case you might not need to be registered if the company is.  Strange.  This only makes sense to a politician.

What I predict will happen here is essentially nothing. Individuals will still do electronics design work, and companies will continue to hire electronics design engineers with zero shits given to what any legislation says.
Most people and companies in the electronics engineering industry won't even know this legislation exists.
It's only if someone reports them and they somehow make a big stink about it will anyone know it exists and starts caring. It will require case law judgement to figure that out and set any sort of legal precedence.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2021, 07:27:31 am »
Have a read of the links from the thread. Giving 'Professional Engineering advice in certain Engineering Fields' is the issue not what you call yourself. If you don't meet the STATE government regs and have bit of paper of approval then you cant give that advice. To get that bit of paper you need to be a Qualified Engineer, in Oz like most of the world this is a four year Degree. There is no ambiguity here this is one follows the other.

This was not driven by Companies but as stated it does have the Support of the peak Engineering body in the country. That is also not to say Companies did not have input into the consultation process but they from the outside were not the driver of this legislation.

That's my point.  They use a term "Professional Engineering advice".  What does that mean?  If you do design work, that's not "engineering", it's just design. 

Why do you say it was not driven by companies?  How do you know that?  Are you saying this was all about the "engineering body" who stands to be part of the process? 

I don't know what you mean by "from the outside".  Don't know much about Oz, as you say, but politics in every other country in the world is very much shape and prodded by companies.  There was a TV show in the future (not all that far actually) where the world was governed by corporations.  Sometimes it feels that way now.
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2021, 07:32:04 am »
This was not driven by Companies but as stated it does have the Support of the peak Engineering body in the country.

And that enginering body has traditionally little to nothing to do with electronics design in this country. Which is why hardly anyone in electronics engineering is a member of Engineers Australia.

The last quote I pulled from the Vic Gov report.

Quote
Most respondents agreed the guidelines on providing professional engineering services did not require any additional information or amendment. However, based on feedback from respondents that disagreed, the guidelines would benefit from expanding the descriptions of the terms ‘engineering’, ‘service’ and ‘engineering service’. Respondent feedback also suggests the guidelines would be improved by the inclusion of an additional section that assists readers to distinguish professional engineering services from other services, including other engineering services which are not intended to be captured by the Act, such as those provided by technologists and technicians.

Would seem to be a fairly clear idea of intent on who/what it is NOT trying to capture. Engineers Aust when I went through Engineering had a strong membership from the 'Electrical' side of things and in particular in the area I was going to Uni in the Latrobe Valley. That same area most of the serious Electronics was handled by Techs rather than Engineers at the time. In my working life (when I had a real job) it was a mixed bag of Degrees, Diploma of Electronics (Techs) and even still a chunk of Diploma Engineers.

The Legislation as I have stated isn't ambiguous Not an Engineer Not able to get the bit of paper to work as ..... What scope those self identifying as Engineers or working in that field can do is I think still open for some debate over the next few years.
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2021, 07:33:00 am »
Do people in Australia have any more say in government than we do in the states?
Much less say, we don't see direct voting/ballot measures/referendums. Also many of the politicians at local/state level are "party" stooges who just vote with what their respective parties internal power systems dictate.

My 94 year old friend talks about being offered a job as the city or county "engineer" (forget which one) by one of his political friends.  My friend is a mechanical engineer who knew nothing about civil engineering and was in no way qualified.  On telling that to the guy the reply was, "That's not important".  They just wanted someone in the seat who would approve the projects they wanted approved.  I watch local politics here and I see the same thing.  They approve thousands of homes to be built on farm land knowing the roads can't handle it saying they'll deal with that as it come, but we need to expand the tax base with the improved property values.  Now they complain they don't have enough money to build more roads and everything is more jammed up than before. 

Politics is pretty much crap everywhere I've ever been.  The sad part is they never seem to get voted out.  People just feel like there's nothing they can do to change it.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2021, 07:49:20 am »
The last quote I pulled from the Vic Gov report.

Quote
Most respondents agreed the guidelines on providing professional engineering services did not require any additional information or amendment. However, based on feedback from respondents that disagreed, the guidelines would benefit from expanding the descriptions of the terms ‘engineering’, ‘service’ and ‘engineering service’. Respondent feedback also suggests the guidelines would be improved by the inclusion of an additional section that assists readers to distinguish professional engineering services from other services, including other engineering services which are not intended to be captured by the Act, such as those provided by technologists and technicians.

Would seem to be a fairly clear idea of intent on who/what it is NOT trying to capture.

Again, watch the video. It is reasonably clear that actual design work means you doing "professional engineering work", a technogist is just someone who implements that design.

Quote
The Legislation as I have stated isn't ambiguous Not an Engineer Not able to get the bit of paper to work as ..... What scope those self identifying as Engineers or working in that field can do is I think still open for some debate over the next few years.

Watch the video.
I'd capture the part if I can find it again.

EDIT: Found it, around the 1:00:00 mark


From that it is very clear that professional engineer is the one that does the design work, and the technologist implements it.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 07:53:23 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2021, 08:18:41 am »
Quote

What if I am unsure if my area of engineering requires registration?
    • The Professional Engineers Registration Act lists the areas of engineering where a professional engineer must be registered to provide professional engineering services in, or for, Victoria. These areas are - civil engineering, structural engineering, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, and fire safety engineering.
    • To provide additional clarity to professional engineers as to whether, and in which area/s of engineering, they are required to be registered, guidance material is being developed with input from engineers and professional engineering services stakeholders.

Still a work in progress as of the last report and that guidance information I can't find anywhere online.

Even if we take the last snip from the video there is a complete omission of the design process of products, the three mentioned areas don't really cover it.

Part of the issue is they are trying to shoehorn a lump of generally unassociated disciplines of Engineering into one bit of paper. Civil Engineering has close to Zero to do with Chemical (still not included) and or Electrical or Electronic Eng. Personally if I was an Electronic Eng I would be seeking to get involved not bitch about what 'might be'.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 08:21:06 am by beanflying »
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2021, 08:43:52 am »
And by Engage I don't mean the Engineering Registration part of it that is done short of removal of legislation. I mean Engage on the limits and intent of the legislation and how it more broadly impacts the overall industry/individual.
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2021, 04:03:07 pm »
Watch the video.
I'd capture the part if I can find it again.

EDIT: Found it, around the 1:00:00 mark


From that it is very clear that professional engineer is the one that does the design work, and the technologist implements it.

I disagree.  "In a production setting... A professional engineer designs the tools, processes and equipment required to turn raw materials into a desired product..." 

I don't believe I do any of that.  I leave the tools, processes and equipment for turning raw materials into the desired product to the contract manufacturer.  I simply specify what the final product is. 

If this is how the legislation defines engineering I think the legislators need to be regulated so they do a proper job.  In fact, it would not be hard to apply these definitions to the process of legislation to require the legislators to be registered now!  They are using raw materials, mostly words, turning them into thee desired product, laws and regulations, just not very effectively.  Legislation engineers. 
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Offline Terry Bites

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2021, 04:03:53 pm »
I think this is going to happen globally sooner or later.  Electrical and electronic engineers and particularly software engineers have had it easy compared to just about any profession you can imagine. You can't be a self-taught surgeon with a successful track record and think that's ok. We put our lives in the hands of engineers every single day and that has to be taken seriously. How you can demonstrate competence beyond your employers satisfaction or shed door without recognised standards of some sort? It sounds like this scheme is well-meaning but a total fuck-up.
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2021, 04:18:30 pm »
Oh well, registered slavery is a whole new level than casual slavery (AKA employment).   :-DD

Offline station240

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2021, 12:34:01 pm »
I think this is going to happen globally sooner or later.  Electrical and electronic engineers and particularly software engineers have had it easy compared to just about any profession you can imagine. You can't be a self-taught surgeon with a successful track record and think that's ok. We put our lives in the hands of engineers every single day and that has to be taken seriously.

I refuse to treat Electrical Engineering and Electronic Engineering as the same things, just because some basic things like Ohms law are the same.
Electronics Engineer screws up a Thermal Resistance calculation - Black epoxy casing cracks open and smoke escapes.
Electronical Engineer screws up a Thermal Resistance calculation - Transformer casing cracks open and smoke/flame escapes (plus resulting blackout).

Yes there are areas of Electronics Engineering (EA) where lives are at risk if it fails, Critical Telecommunications hardware, Aviation, Robotics, Medical, Fire alarm/detection, and some others.
Some of these areas are spelled out in the legislation, but then everything else is lumped in as well.

Basic PCB design is unlikely to get anyone killed, NZXT's crappy PCIe riser card that catches fire came close though, though that was made in China.
Yet it looks like even this would require 4 year uni degree + 4 years working under someone else + $415 a year to EA.
End result, it's no longer profitable to design PCBs in this country  |O

I'm yet to be (nearly) killed by anything electronic designed in the Western World, China yup lots of shit from there.

How you can demonstrate competence beyond your employers satisfaction or shed door without recognised standards of some sort? It sounds like this scheme is well-meaning but a total fuck-up.

The biggest fuck-up is involving Engineering Australia in this, you can't even join unless an existing member sponsors you.
It's not an industry accreditation board, it's an Old Boys Club, it's a Lodge, it's a private school tie, it's a resume filler.
What happens when an entire workplace with NDAs has no existing members, none of you can join ever ?

Plus EA get most of their money from membership fees, yet the legislation appears to let them decide who Legally needs Registration.

Biggest problem I see in Engineering is second guessing:
a. The Manufacturer says this cladding isn't to be used on multistory buildings, meh is should be fine (Grenfell tower fire, and some in Victoria)
b. I don't fully understand this unusual bridge design, but it seems ok (FIU pedestrian bridge collapse)
c. Customer needs some extra holes in this PCB, just add them, no need to redesign the PCB (supplier to NZXT's PCIe riser card)
 

Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2021, 11:36:09 pm »
 EA should adopt part of the US Model.  We define things that can kill in the broad sense.  You need a PE to do that work  in my state.

My former employer designated me, a non-degreed engineer, as a "Senior Field Engineer" on the business card.   I got used to visiting Federal labs, and when asked a question outside of my scope, I simply said, "I'm not a PE in the State of XXXX and I cannot answer that question", Company Happy, Engineering Society happy,  Customer happy most of the time.  The company assumes the risk if I did work a PE should have done, and also  I acquire part of the risk, and could be fined/charged if something went wrong. It is legal to do that here in most states.   END OF PROBLEM.

Can I design a man rated structure or a life support  device.  Nope.  Can I suggest a design, yes.  Can I build one and test it  as a technologist Oh Yes, .  Can I improve it prior to submission, Oh Yes..   Can I advise a PE about my opinion, yes.  I did that often as a PE was my former supervisor. Once in a while He'd say something along the line of "justify It, Prove It, show me the math", so off to the library  I go.

Round here an Engineering Professor teaching in certain lines of work is granted an assumed PE status automatically for certain things while teaching. They also are honorary shop teachers.    :o

Usually I'd get good treatment if I went on site, and explained, I'm designated as an Engineer in my title, but really I'm a well experienced technician. Often I had a better interaction with scientists, facilities folks, health and safety, and regulatory then the full bred degreed engineers.

Yet another employer once ordered me, when I trained medical service Biomeds on CT systems,   that if a surgeon or radiologist  declared an emergency, and I was on site, but an Engineer was not, to bring up the imaging system under repair  to save a life if possible. Use my best judgment on the calibration  parameters, and hand the system over to the Radiologist.   Scary, but who would want some one to bleed out, compared to a possible mild X-ray overdose. The senior guy teaching the course muttered something along the lines of "Turn on the breakers, turn the key, input the password, select the procedure, click the mouse, and press the button if you need to." That made me shudder.  The threshold was "Auto Accident, Bleed-out,  or Something Equally Serious" and don't expect Good Samaritan laws to apply.

In my present work,
I've tagged out a system on a Engineer with a Degree (PhD) who made some design and procedural errors.  He laughed about it later, after things were corrected. .    That is my veto power as a Senior Technician.  I had better damn well be right before I do it.  Facility staff tell me my dividing line where what I do stops is anything inside or on mounted  the wall.  Even then they will ask me what I want and have observed.

How you codify that is difficult, but it does work.      I know better then to repair the elevators. I don't touch drinking water or power distribution, and I sure as heck do not repair the building stairs. For Biomed, I only work on research devices that do not support pets or humans, and are approved by the investigational committee.    No Avionics, unless it goes on an experimental aircraft and is signed off by a designated examiner.

   If I think I'm working on something I need inspected, I pick up the phone at work  and call. A PE pops in and has me explain what I have done,, and show my drawings. It is simple, and it works.   I can even set the test for the CET, I'm grandfathered in due to my age.

"Safety of Life" is the dividing line for me.

Steve

« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 12:05:36 am by LaserSteve »
"When in doubt, check the Byte order of the Communications Protocol, By Hand, On an Oscilloscope"

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Offline Circlotron

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2021, 12:58:59 am »
Engineers are still the fall guy for corrupt leadership or a corporation that will not let them design/test properly.
https://dilbert.com/strip/2001-07-29
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2021, 01:02:00 am »
If you have to apprentice to an registered engineer for four years to become a registered engineer, how did the first one get registered?
And if the first one wasn't a recognised engineer, their apprentice's qualification would presumably be invalid, and so on down the line to today.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2021, 01:21:36 am »
My former employer designated me, a non-degreed engineer, as a "Senior Field Engineer" on the business card. 

So you were an old farmer?   :-DD
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Offline nigelwright7557

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2021, 05:12:14 am »

Your assuming that degree people have a good name in the Electronics industry, I would check on that.
A degree is the start of your learning not the end.
While I just have City and Guilds in electronics I have 40 years experience in design.
And I still dont know it all or anywhere near it.
Always, something new coming out and another field to explore.
 

Offline penfold

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2021, 06:51:06 am »

Your assuming that degree people have a good name in the Electronics industry, I would check on that.
A degree is the start of your learning not the end.
While I just have City and Guilds in electronics I have 40 years experience in design.
And I still dont know it all or anywhere near it.
Always, something new coming out and another field to explore.

There are an awful lot of "engineers" who don't share quite that same attitude. In the UK at least I've encountered many companies who are simply stuck in the '90s with a "well, we've always done it like that" mindset who mostly out of ignorance see, for instance, EMC and safety as something that can only be dealt with by sticking-plaster solutions rather than something that can be designed in from the start.. and the very suggestion of agile project management as some mortal insult!

Equally, as much as a degree is only the beginning (and not even the best beginning for many of the best designer's I've worked with so I'm absolutely NOT siding with the "degrees only" camp), experience on its own counts for nothing unless there's some cycle of criticism-development-evaluation.
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2021, 08:01:35 am »
Several things here this STATE legislation also covers Engineers making tall buildings and Bridges, those playing with Steam Turbines etc. There is a legitimate need that only those qualified do that work and they be held to a standard. It is completely out of order to have self claiming Engineers doing this sort of work.

This is NOT about other countries and their laws or lack of and is not an exercise in bashing people without Degrees. As I mentioned earlier a lot of non Eng's run rings around 4 year Qualified Eng.

This Topic is actually about one State (Victoria) in Australia following Queensland as the first State to go down a similar path so it is not at this stage an Australia wide thing although it will likely head that way over the next few years.

If Electronic 'Designers' see they don't want in then they should be involved and make sure they are kept out and the way to do that is get involved in the process.
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Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2021, 08:06:55 pm »
GNUARM mumbled:

"So you were an old Farmer"

I guess I need a name change at EEVBLOG to "Old Farmer", I actually like it... No mods, no, but I thought about it...

Steve
"When in doubt, check the Byte order of the Communications Protocol, By Hand, On an Oscilloscope"

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