Author Topic: Australian Engineers Registration Act?  (Read 8299 times)

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Offline DeanA

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2021, 12:22:37 am »
What I predict will happen here is essentially nothing. Individuals will still do electronics design work, and companies will continue to hire electronics design engineers with zero shits given to what any legislation says.
Most people and companies in the electronics engineering industry won't even know this legislation exists.
It's only if someone reports them and they somehow make a big stink about it will anyone know it exists and starts caring. It will require case law judgement to figure that out and set any sort of legal precedence.

Problem comes in when specifications and contracts start being written which request signoff by a Registered Professional Engineer.
We have already seen this happen in Qld, for example this clause is in a TMR Specification for a Qld electronic speed limit signs:

"Technical Specifications and certifications of the VSLS and/or VSL/LCS components
(signed by the Contractor’s RPEQ) must be submitted to the Principal via the Administrator for
verification prior to manufacture. These components include the group controller, sign face, LEDs,
LED matrix boards, pixel arrangements showing horizontal and vertical pitch and total number of
pixels, power supply, communication ports, cable termination, enclosure and mounting accessories.
"

So employers that do this kind of work will start looking for "Registered Professional Engineers" to employ.

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2021, 03:00:12 am »
The last quote I pulled from the Vic Gov report.

Quote
Most respondents agreed the guidelines on providing professional engineering services did not require any additional information or amendment. However, based on feedback from respondents that disagreed, the guidelines would benefit from expanding the descriptions of the terms ‘engineering’, ‘service’ and ‘engineering service’. Respondent feedback also suggests the guidelines would be improved by the inclusion of an additional section that assists readers to distinguish professional engineering services from other services, including other engineering services which are not intended to be captured by the Act, such as those provided by technologists and technicians.

Would seem to be a fairly clear idea of intent on who/what it is NOT trying to capture.

Again, watch the video. It is reasonably clear that actual design work means you doing "professional engineering work", a technogist is just someone who implements that design.

Quote
The Legislation as I have stated isn't ambiguous Not an Engineer Not able to get the bit of paper to work as ..... What scope those self identifying as Engineers or working in that field can do is I think still open for some debate over the next few years.

Watch the video.
I'd capture the part if I can find it again.

EDIT: Found it, around the 1:00:00 mark


From that it is very clear that professional engineer is the one that does the design work, and the technologist implements it.

The first column includes a lot of stuff that Engineers don't do.

The "raw materials" are processed in factories by people who may be Physicists, Chemists, Metallurgists, "Technologists", & maybe, even Engineers.
(Along the way, before the factory, others come into it :-, like various flavours of miners, who are probably from around Certificate level, to Mining Engineers, to, again, Metallurgists, but let's ignore that part).

Some of the EE's "raw materials" are completed devices from semiconductor factories, others from places that make resistors, capacitors, inductors, etc.

Some of the physical hardware comes from metal extrusion factories, some specials are made up by "Engineering Works", who will include in their ranks, specialists in casting, machining, & so on, including a few Engineers.

Going from the "raw materials" to the finished product hasn't been how things were done since back in Da Vinci's time-------& he was a sculptor, not an Engineer!

The "Maintenance" column, though probably fairly valid in Civil Engineering, is Bollocks for Electronics "out in the wild".

Hoping not to insult anyone, I'd like to point out that, in my long experience, EEs in general were very poor at finding faults in equipment-------------it isn't their job!

The same is generally true with Automotive Engineers.
The M.I.A.M.E. up on your car repairer's wall doesn't mean they are degree holders.

Unfortunately, at least with Electronics, TAFE has been so dumbed down that the so- called "Techs" being turned out are just marginally more effective than the guys answering the phone & reading off a script.

The idea of a qualified Boss  & a lot of "arms & legs" running about doing their bidding seems to be the ideal of the MBAs, & the like, running today's industry.









« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 03:02:05 am by vk6zgo »
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2021, 04:52:09 am »
I was just thinking about how insurance agents are licensed in the US state they are in.  Some of our states are not so large.  I have property in two states and was looking at a property in a third, all within some 70 miles of each other.  I could not find a single agent that could cover all three states because of the licensing issues. 

Sometimes I think we go a bit overboard with the licensing thing.  You need a license to do many professional services that are a lot less technical than electronics work.  Here a license is required to cut hair or do nails.   i don't know what prompted this idea really.  There must have been a series of hairstyling fatalities and someone in the government said, "The carnage must end!" 

Have any of the politicians sponsoring this bill explained in any clear terms why they felt it was needed?  Was it just vague generalities or did something specific happen? 
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Offline srb1954

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2021, 11:26:03 am »
The worst racket though was in automobile licensing restrictions where you had to take your car to a licensed state approved shop to get your annual sign off. The amount of racketeering I saw where parts that were fine were said to be bad and needed costly replacement "bribe" to the auto mechanic business in order to purchase your sign off on registration was absolutely disgusting.
That was also my experience with Australian auto mechanics falsely claiming that parts with extremely minor defects had to be replaced before they would sign off. They also went further than that by only pretending to replace the "faulty" parts and signing off anyway. They still took the money for "replacing" the parts though.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2021, 03:03:07 pm »
The worst racket though was in automobile licensing restrictions where you had to take your car to a licensed state approved shop to get your annual sign off. The amount of racketeering I saw where parts that were fine were said to be bad and needed costly replacement "bribe" to the auto mechanic business in order to purchase your sign off on registration was absolutely disgusting.
That was also my experience with Australian auto mechanics falsely claiming that parts with extremely minor defects had to be replaced before they would sign off. They also went further than that by only pretending to replace the "faulty" parts and signing off anyway. They still took the money for "replacing" the parts though.

In WA, we've never had that rule, & we haven't had a great epidemic of accidents from "non-roadworthy" vehicles.
A cop can pull you over if your car looks a bit rough, & do a quick check.

You may get a defect notice, requiring you to repair it yourself, or get the car repaired, then take it to an examination centre, where, on payment of a fee, they will check your car.
If it doesn't pass, they will list what is still wrong, so you can get that fixed.

The examiner & the  repair guy are not connected in any way.




 

Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2021, 03:10:58 pm »
Had a licensed "Furnace Repair Contractor" out last winter to obtain a part late at night.

     He tried to tell my 88 year old Mom that her gas  furnace was emitting too much Carbon Monoxide and it would have to be condemned on the spot. His  Co meter was reading alternately  000.01 and 000.00 with Bit Bobble.   He tried to force the issue, saying he would have the county condemn the furnace in the morning as we had  >100 ppm Co2.   He was standing in my basement lab at the time, trying to tell a  university Senior instrument Tech I had a Co problem.  That and we had cracks in the cast iron burners, which really just was some mild oxide.  I Went out  the  next day, bought a fiber camera, took a picture, emailed the 50 year old burner's pics to the county. NO Cracks, and County was damn impressed with the quality of the burner.
Furnace is on the original Honeywell gas valve, too..

   All I've had to do is a new belt every two years, an Anticipator every three years or so,  lube the fan bearings , a few new fan  motors and a few pilot thermocouples.

     All I needed was a fan belt.  He wanted 6K USD on the spot for a new furnace in the morning.  At Christmas...

There are now ALL possible spare parts for the furnace setting beside it.   

Standing in a home  lab that would make some folks in the TEA thread cry with it's rich diversity,  and trying to condemn an old Ladies furnace on false evidence.   He hammered Mom till she was in tears trying to convince her I was wrong.   I could not get him to leave.   So I woke up his boss.   Fireworks ensured.    I take good care of her... 

Licenses are needed in some circumstances, but they should not be a license to steal.

Steve
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 03:16:14 pm by LaserSteve »
"When in doubt, check the Byte order of the Communications Protocol, By Hand, On an Oscilloscope"

Quote from a co-inventor of the PLC, whom i had the honor of working with recently.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2021, 03:44:00 pm »
One reason for licensing is that the county can revoke the license for good cause.
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2021, 07:46:37 am »
A hapless bloke fell victim to the flood waters in Sydney. The news here and elsewhere are referring to him as a software engineer.

Quote
Mr Younas, who has two elder brothers and one younger sister, was from Malir Cantt in Karachi and studied software engineering.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9399457/Inside-phone-call-student-just-drowned-car-floodwaters-Glenorie-NSW.html

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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2021, 08:26:30 pm »
One reason for licensing is that the county can revoke the license for good cause.

As well as for any other reason.  You can't fight city hall.
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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Australian Engineers Registration Act?
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2021, 12:28:01 am »
This was not driven by Companies but as stated it does have the Support of the peak Engineering body in the country.

And that engineering body has traditionally little to nothing to do with electronics design in this country. Which is why hardly anyone in electronics engineering is a member of Engineers Australia.

Firstly, that is because we are a minority, even in the engineering world. Secondly, we are well under the radar with public understanding of what an electronics engineer is. We are nobodies except to those who understand and value our services.

I qualify to be a member of Engineers Australia (I have the engineering degree), but my money is much better used elsewhere quite frankly. Not ever being a member has not impacted my career or opportunities in any way - EVER. The $ savings over the years is enough to buy a great Agilent oscilloscope and spectrum analyzer.

From the EA website: "Membership with Engineers Australia will accelerate your career and reward your hard work."  :-//

I think the triple A's have a bigger impact to accelerate a career: Aptitude, Attitude and Ability.

 


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