Author Topic: Bad caps documentary - very good  (Read 3444 times)

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Offline flipperTopic starter

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Bad caps documentary - very good
« on: November 14, 2024, 04:57:00 am »
Nothing new to us, and a good watch:

 
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Offline tigrr

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2024, 10:46:20 pm »
Samsung and LG have the highest percentage of failed capacitors. It's a bit disappointing...
 

Offline richnormand

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2024, 07:54:26 pm »
Interesting. Nothing really new but more people should be aware.

An interview with Rossmann would have been appropriate in addition to Ifixit.

Over 20 years ago when I was travelling a lot I noticed many airports using the Viera Panasonic plasma for 24/7 flight display.
I got one for home and it still works. It was not the cheapest but you can make a product last if you want to.
Also, in the documentary, you can see a list of defective TVs and the capacitors but no failure in the Panasonic/Sony/.. column.

A month ago I replaced the battery in my son's Surface. I now understand the (very) low repairability score from Ifixit now. |O

Planned obsolescence indeed.


« Last Edit: December 02, 2024, 07:56:32 pm by richnormand »
Repair, Renew, Reuse, Recycle, Rebuild, Reduce, Recover, Repurpose, Restore, Refurbish, Recondition, Renovate
 

Offline EPAIII

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2024, 10:47:30 am »
There is nothing new about electrolytic capacitors failing. I spent over 45 years at TV stations and related places like production companies repairing not just TVs, but all types of equipment, even digital before the public had even heard that word. And of all the components that I replaced electrolytic capacitors were near the top of the list if not at the top.

Please notice that I inserted the word "electrolytic" into that statement. Other types of capacitors have a much, much lower failure rate. In that 45+ years of replacing defective components I don't think I came across even a single film capacitor that had failed. I would say the same about ceramic disc capacitors but there I did have one that failed. But just ONE in 45 years. And it had an intermittent short. Since it was in a low Voltage circuit and over-rated by at least a factor of 5X, I suspect it was a rare, factory defect and not some kind of slow, constant deterioration. No, all the other types of capacitors combined don't even come to 1% of the number of electrolytics that I have replaced. So you can't say that capacitors in general fail a lot. That honor goes only to electrolytics.

Individual transistors were used a lot in that equipment. I have seen individual devices that had at least 500 2N3904s in them. Some may have had 1000 or more. Transistors are probably second on my personal list of replacements. More than electrolytic capacitors? Probably not but I did replace a lot. Transistors can and do deteriorate from the same things that can attack electrolytic capacitors. And heat is at the top of that list.

Inductors (coils) also have a very low failure rate. They don't slowly deteriorate: they usually fail from a current spike that vaporizes the weakest point in the wire they are wound with. Or, less often, they can have an internal short. But both of these are very rare events.

So why do electrolytic capacitors fail so often? Why do they deteriorate? And why on earth do designers still use them when there are other types of capacitor that will last almost to forever? I will tackle the last question first. The answer is simple; it is the capacitance and Voltage ratings that are available in each type. In order to have a film capacitor as large as an aluminum electrolytic the size of my little finger, that film capacitor would need to be as big as a house and would probably cost as much as ten luxury homes. The capacitance of a capacitor is directly proportional to the area of the plates and inversely proportional to their separation. Yea, I know everyone here already knows that. So when larger values of capacitance and higher Voltage ratings are needed, the electrolytic type capacitor really shines. I mean it is like a super-nova compared to a dying star at the end of it's life. And the other side of the engineering here is the cost vs performance trade-off. Micro Farad for micro Farad, ceramic or film capacitors are easily 10,000 times more expensive than electrolytics. At that rate for parts that are present in ten or more in them, things like the cell phone which we all carry around every day would only be affordable by the richest of the rich. You and I would simply be out in the cold.

But in engineering circles it is well known that every thing is a compromise. The famous saying is,
"I can make it fast.
I can make it cheap.
I can make it well.

PICK ANY TWO!"
And that is the truth, you only get to pick TWO, not all three.

Electric capacitors are made fast and cheap. They must be cheap for otherwise there would be no need to even make them because no one could afford them.

Planned obsolescence? NO!

Planned affordability! YES!

And it is such a fundamental and obvious engineering choice that no one who designs electronic devices would spend even a single micro-second thinking it over. So, like it or lump it, that's it.

Now, could electrolytic capacitors be made better? To last longer? Of course they could. But you are back to that fast-cheap-well thing again. And yes, they probably do last for the average lifetime of the devices they are used in. And if you do want your devices to last twice as long, find someone who knows how to replace them when they fail. I have personally restored things like TVs to life by just ordering and replacing ALL the electrolytic capacitors in them. And, for what it is worth, I replaced those TVs before they failed for a second time.
Paul A.  -   SE Texas
And if you look REAL close at an analog signal,
You will find that it has discrete steps.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2024, 11:09:07 am »
I still repair electronics from time to time and I think in the last decade I've seen one or two failed electrolytics.  Whilst I'm sure they do contribute to product failure the more common faults now for TVs are issues with the main flash memory.  Bad capacitors are essentially an issue of the past.  Even Chinese-made electrolytic capacitors can still last a long time because they have spent effort on the research and development to improve quality.  I would still not specify them myself because their performance usually isn't as good as the Japanese makes, but I don't design pricing sensitive equipment.

Some engineers do not appreciate that writing to flash memory wears it out because each write requires a page to be erased and data saved to it, this process can only be done around 1,000 - 3,000 times per page.  Worse, the hotter the device, the quicker the failure; and, in particular, the type of failure is for flash cells to become progressively leakier, which is itself temperature dependent.  The issue can then occur that as the chip warms up - or, often, the chip is placed near to a hot system-on-chip IC - the pages begin to read out corrupt or fail to read out due to ECC fault.   This will cause the OS to crash or bug out in various ways.   Unfortunately, this is rarely recoverable because manufacturers often do not supply replacement firmware even as a binary image, nor do they provide a way to load this in case of NAND failure (the issue almost never occurs on NOR flash).

 

Offline tigrr

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2024, 08:25:41 pm »
Also, in the documentary, you can see a list of defective TVs and the capacitors but no failure in the Panasonic/Sony/.. column.
Which certainly speaks of their higher quality, compared to Samsung and LG capacitors   :-+
« Last Edit: December 03, 2024, 08:27:15 pm by tigrr »
 

Offline tigrr

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2024, 08:32:32 pm »
But in engineering circles it is well known that every thing is a compromise. The famous saying is,
"I can make it fast. I can make it cheap. I can make it well. PICK ANY TWO!"
And that is the truth, you only get to pick TWO, not all three.
Cheap and well is also possible?  ;)
 

Online wraper

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2024, 08:37:34 pm »
Quickly looking into it, this documentary is an inaccurate shit. Samsung/LG just got particularly unlucky with low esr capacitor series they used (mostly Capxon GF, KF, Samxon GF (GT was fine), Samwha WB (WL was mostly fine)). They may bulge just staying on the shelf never soldered, nor they were the cheapest stuff available. Those who used more expensive Nichicon HN, HM, Chemi-con KZG, KZJ were unlucky as well.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2024, 09:07:25 pm by wraper »
 

Offline tigrr

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2024, 08:41:27 pm »
I still repair electronics from time to time and I think in the last decade I've seen one or two failed electrolytics.
It's amazing... In a decade!? I didn't specifically count, but I think I definitely changed several hundred.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2024, 08:44:19 pm »
Capacitors made since 2010 are fine even when come from those brands who produced bulging shit. So unless they're really bottom of the barrel, they'll be fine. Even most of the cheapest Chinese stuff is fine. It was some industry wide shit with materials used, that hit many mid-price manufacturers at the same time. Even Japanese manufacturers were hit. Only low ESR series were affected.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2024, 08:47:44 pm by wraper »
 

Offline tigrr

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2024, 08:46:12 pm »
Samsung/LG just got particularly unlucky with low esr capacitor series they used (mostly Capxon GF, KF, Samxon GF, Samwha WB).
Samsung/LG are world famous brands and they should not allow choosing bad components.  :--
 

Offline tigrr

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2024, 08:48:37 pm »
Capacitors made since 2010 are fine even when come from those brands who produced shit.
I agree. Many electrolytes produced in earlier years than 2010 are also in order.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2024, 08:49:09 pm »
Samsung/LG just got particularly unlucky with low esr capacitor series they used (mostly Capxon GF, KF, Samxon GF, Samwha WB).
Samsung/LG are world famous brands and they should not allow choosing bad components.  :--
Nobody knew they're bad  :palm:. As I said above, if you happened to use Nichicon HN, HM, Chemi-con KZG, KZJ, you were just as unlucky.
 

Online wraper

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Online wraper

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2024, 09:14:47 pm »
It's pretty much like blaming laptop manufacturers who used Nvidia chips produced in 2006-2008, especially Nvidia chipsets for AMD CPUs (GPUs lasted a bit longer). Sure poor cooling exacerbated the issue (hello HP), but all of those were pretty much destined to die sooner or later.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2024, 09:18:59 pm »
As a point of comparison I had an iiyama monitor that finally died after 18 years old, it had nearly daily use, in the end the CCFLs killed it.  The condition of the electrolytic caps on the PSU? They looked fine.  The backlight could be forced to run, so I checked PSU ripple.  No apparently high PSU ripple.  Full of Capxon and Samyoung capacitors... cheap, bottom of the barrel, but... still working. 

Heat is the enemy of capacitors, appropriate design saves them more than anything else.  Yes, many dodgy Chinese caps were out there at the time... but also many reasonably fine caps that still survive to this day.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2024, 09:25:02 pm »
Heat is the enemy of capacitors, appropriate design saves them more than anything else.
Yes, however those capacitors were just inherently flawed regardless how much you load them. AFAIK they were fine in accelerated tests, so nobody caught it until it was way too late.
Quote
I had an iiyama monitor that finally died after 18 years old
I bet it either did not use affected capacitor series or was made later when the issue was already fixed. I had seen the same what's on the photo with brand new Jamicon MZ sitting in my parts box.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2024, 09:28:25 pm by wraper »
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2024, 09:31:47 pm »
Heat is the enemy of capacitors, appropriate design saves them more than anything else.
Yes, however those capacitors were just inherently flawed regardless how much you load them. AFAIK they were fine in accelerated test, so nobody catches it until it was way too late.
Quote
I had an iiyama monitor that finally died after 18 years old
I bet it either did not use affected capacitor series or was made later when the issue was already fixed. I had seen the same what's on the photo with Jamicon MZ sitting in my parts box.

My point is it's a case of reverse survivor bias.  People see a lot of power supplies with bad Capxon capacitors and assume all power supplies with Capxon capacitors will fail. When in reality, the cause is more complex.  A power supply that has excessively high ripple current due to crap design will kill any capacitor eventually.  A power supply that places capacitors directly above the rectifier heatsink (for a television, for instance, relying on convection currents to cool heatsinks) will also kill capacitors more quickly.  If engineers take care, even "crap" capacitors can last a long time. 

This is why I hate this trend now I have seen with computer PSUs: they specify "Japanese capacitors" (sometimes just primary-side, as if those have ever been the issue) as if these capacitors are immune to failure. Well if you put 1,000uF 16V capacitor on the 12V rail supplying 40A, then even the best quality Rubicon cap will pop in a year's time.  What is more important is design choices, like quantity of capacitor, and selecting higher voltage rating parts -- not because voltage is an issue in itself, but higher voltage caps are larger and have higher ripple current.  Or, even better, eliminating wet electrolytics altogether and going with polymer capacitors or ceramic where possible.  A lot of ATX PSUs now have buck converters for the 5V and 3.3V rails and poly caps feature on these due to the very high switching frequencies, these will likely outlast most of the rest of the power supply's components.
 

Offline tigrr

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2024, 10:05:13 pm »
Heat is the enemy of capacitors, appropriate design saves them more than anything else.
Absolutely right. I came to the same conclusion long ago, back in the last century.
 

Offline tigrr

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2024, 10:07:35 pm »
 

Online wraper

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2024, 10:07:57 pm »
People see a lot of power supplies with bad Capxon capacitors and assume all power supplies with Capxon capacitors will fail. When in reality, the cause is more complex.
If they use particular series made in mid-late 2000s, they'll all fail within 3-7 years of normal use. What I find really stupid is that some people still recap devices they just bought right away if they see Capxon or whatever brand they deem unworthy.
 

Offline Infraviolet

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2024, 03:18:43 am »
Just from looking at the video's thumbnail, seems odd to show a phone when it's about (I assume, have yet to watch) the electrolytic capacitor plague. You aren't going to be getting electrolytics in something as thin a profile as a phone, they'll do it all with ceramics (despite the extra cost these give when you want uFs or tens of uFs) surely?
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2024, 05:55:09 am »
I find it weird that in the videos people bring power supply boards and tv boards to the repair shop. Just trying to imagine that grandma opening up her TV and getting the power supply board out like a ninja   :-/O

Is this what people in France do or it is all setup for a show.  :-//
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Online wraper

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2024, 11:53:32 am »
Just from looking at the video's thumbnail, seems odd to show a phone when it's about (I assume, have yet to watch) the electrolytic capacitor plague. You aren't going to be getting electrolytics in something as thin a profile as a phone, they'll do it all with ceramics (despite the extra cost these give when you want uFs or tens of uFs) surely?
You may find electrolytic in something made in pre-2000. No chance in something more modern. In 2000s they might have used a few tantalums at most. Otherwise it's all MLCC.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2024, 11:55:08 am by wraper »
 

Offline Ranayna

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Re: Bad caps documentary - very good
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2024, 11:54:13 am »
https://www.dell.com/en-us/blog/dell-on-the-nichicon-capacitor-issue/
I started my IT carreer shortly after the capacitor plague made it's round. Sooooo many leaky caps in DELL computers.
 


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