Author Topic: Ban of non-rechargeable batteries  (Read 13909 times)

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Offline eugenenine

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Re: Ban of non-rechargeable batteries
« Reply #100 on: October 16, 2020, 01:48:34 pm »
There are no rechargeables with a lifetime of 20 years of continuous duty

I have some Sanyo 1650mAH NiMH from 1999 (before Eneloop) that can still be used.  I gave them to my son once I had enough Eneloops and he uses in his Lego motor power box.  Some of my Eneloops are 1 years old now and still going.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Ban of non-rechargeable batteries
« Reply #101 on: October 16, 2020, 02:17:11 pm »
My father has a rechargeable shaver with a 25 year old NiMH battery pack in it (3 x AAA in a sealed package), that I just replaced last month for him as it was running a little short after a full charge.

Not bad at all!
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Ban of non-rechargeable batteries
« Reply #102 on: October 16, 2020, 04:30:42 pm »
NiCd are still used in a lot of devices. They are quite resilient, usually sit on a trickle-charger 24-7 and ready for use when needed.

Trickle chargers though were a big reason for NiCad's demise.  While they are/were the most tolerant of trickle charging it does tend to slow cook them to death.  This is why Nicad's lasted over 10 years in my old Makita drill but NiCads in cordless phones and solar lights only lasted a couple years, the Makita drill was a smart charger that would stop charging when the battery was 'full' but the others would trickle charge them to death.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Ban of non-rechargeable batteries
« Reply #103 on: October 16, 2020, 04:37:19 pm »
I have some 20+ year old NiCads that are still usable and some other chemistries of similar age also usable.  But they are the exceptions, not the rule.  Just as there are incandescent bulbs still burning after many decades of use.

The reasons for survival are multiple and at least partly unknown to me.  Initial quality.  Careful storage.  Benign usage.  Careful charging.  ..... 

It would be unreasonable to expect all of these things to line up for the general population of batteries.  Some Lithium chemistries are more robust to the ills of battery usage, but I still think it is optimistic to assume 20 year life for the bulk of the population.
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Ban of non-rechargeable batteries
« Reply #104 on: October 16, 2020, 04:38:27 pm »

Buggy whips are still current technology for those that deal with horse teams.

And used consensually in the bedroom for certain lifestyles  :-DD
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Ban of non-rechargeable batteries
« Reply #105 on: October 16, 2020, 04:43:47 pm »
Where can you even buy standard NiMH batteries anymore? Maybe random China sellers? I haven't seen them in years, all the ones that the local stores around here carry are pre-charged (LSD), all of the Amazon branded ones, all of the Ikea ones, even the cheap stuff like Tenergy is LSD, albeit not as good quality as the Japanese stuff. It's a complete non-issue, yes I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find garbage, just like if you can easily find junk alkaline cells that leak (Duracell, Kirkland, etc) but excellent quality NiMH cells have been widely available mainstream products for over a decade, I literally have not bought a single disposable AAA, AA or 9V battery in more than 10 years and this has not required any extreme measures or sacrifices. It surprises me that anyone still buys them, I can only assume they are either "penny wise and pound foolish" or they are not aware that technology has progressed.

I still see non-LSD NiMH sold in grocery stores where the average non-technical person is still likely to buy them.  Thankfully I haven't see the Energizer 15 minute battery cookers but still see their non-LSD batteries.  Those have done a lot to steer people away from rechargeables over the years.
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: Ban of non-rechargeable batteries
« Reply #106 on: October 16, 2020, 04:51:17 pm »
I have some 20+ year old NiCads that are still usable and some other chemistries of similar age also usable.  But they are the exceptions, not the rule.  Just as there are incandescent bulbs still burning after many decades of use.

The reasons for survival are multiple and at least partly unknown to me.  Initial quality.  Careful storage.  Benign usage.  Careful charging.  ..... 

It would be unreasonable to expect all of these things to line up for the general population of batteries.  Some Lithium chemistries are more robust to the ills of battery usage, but I still think it is optimistic to assume 20 year life for the bulk of the population.

Most of the NiCad's and NiMH I've seen that didn't last very long were due to either too slow (trickle) or too fast (15 minute) charging.  Since Li based cells require more precise charging circuits you don't find the bad charge designs like you do other cells.   Though its still rare to see a Li based cell more than a few years old.  I'd bet your long life batteries had a decent charger.
 

Offline Rick Law

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Re: Ban of non-rechargeable batteries
« Reply #107 on: October 17, 2020, 04:35:04 am »
I wish everything would just switch to using lithium ion cells.  Basically treat protected 18650 or perhaps a new smaller form factor the same way as AA batteries.    They have the advantage of being rechargeable and also having a very low self discharge rate compared to say, Ni-MH.   Ideally a new form factor that is also designed to be handled by the average joe would maybe be in order.  Something with a built in fuse perhaps so that even if you short it out it's not going to explode.  Maybe a poly fuse?

You can buy an AA size protected LiIon today.  $8.00

I like them, but resisted using them.  I think my wife (or myself) will probably get them mixed up and try to stuff two of them into something that expects two 2x1.2V and be blasted with 2x3.7V.  Bye bye equipment.

Nitecore NL1485 14500 850mAh 3.7V Protected Lithium Ion (Li-ion).  I consider Nitecore a reputable brand, but that is an untested opinion only.
https://www.batteryjunction.com/nitecore-nl1485-14500-battery.html?msclkid=2f519302cf2b1fd9a729cc88bc219d36
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Ban of non-rechargeable batteries
« Reply #108 on: October 17, 2020, 04:43:54 am »
I wish everything would just switch to using lithium ion cells.  Basically treat protected 18650 or perhaps a new smaller form factor the same way as AA batteries.    They have the advantage of being rechargeable and also having a very low self discharge rate compared to say, Ni-MH.   Ideally a new form factor that is also designed to be handled by the average joe would maybe be in order.  Something with a built in fuse perhaps so that even if you short it out it's not going to explode.  Maybe a poly fuse?

You can buy an AA size protected LiIon today.  $8.00

I like them, but resisted using them.  I think my wife (or myself) will probably get them mixed up and try to stuff two of them into something that expects two 2x1.2V and be blasted with 2x3.7V.  Bye bye equipment.

Nitecore NL1485 14500 850mAh 3.7V Protected Lithium Ion (Li-ion).  I consider Nitecore a reputable brand, but that is an untested opinion only.
https://www.batteryjunction.com/nitecore-nl1485-14500-battery.html?msclkid=2f519302cf2b1fd9a729cc88bc219d36

Yeah but I'm thinking make products actually designed to just take straight lithium cells, simpler that way and make it standard.  The lithium AA have active circuitry to bring the voltage down so more subject to potential failure.  Though I guess the same can be said for protected lithium cells they have active circuitry too, though much simpler.
 

Offline Rick Law

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Re: Ban of non-rechargeable batteries
« Reply #109 on: October 17, 2020, 05:15:21 am »
...
Yeah but I'm thinking make products actually designed to just take straight lithium cells, simpler that way and make it standard.  The lithium AA have active circuitry to bring the voltage down so more subject to potential failure.  Though I guess the same can be said for protected lithium cells they have active circuitry too, though much simpler.

If more products are designed for it, that would be nice.

For the 2xAA or the 2xDD, often, I try to just see how it works with a single 3.7V LiIon.  My emergency radio (2xDD) is now running on an 18650.  The 2xAA emergency radio, well, I could use one of those 14500, but reluctant for reasons I already said in prior reply.

If just more products can be made to function down to say 2V, then the 2xAA or 2xAAA can run nicely from NiMH.  Or, we should revive Alkaline recharge cells that really put out 1.5V, and rework it to have hundreds instead of tens of cycles, that would help too. 
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Ban of non-rechargeable batteries
« Reply #110 on: October 17, 2020, 05:24:20 am »
I wish everything would just switch to using lithium ion cells.  Basically treat protected 18650 or perhaps a new smaller form factor the same way as AA batteries.    They have the advantage of being rechargeable and also having a very low self discharge rate compared to say, Ni-MH.   Ideally a new form factor that is also designed to be handled by the average joe would maybe be in order.  Something with a built in fuse perhaps so that even if you short it out it's not going to explode.  Maybe a poly fuse?

You can buy an AA size protected LiIon today.  $8.00

I like them, but resisted using them.  I think my wife (or myself) will probably get them mixed up and try to stuff two of them into something that expects two 2x1.2V and be blasted with 2x3.7V.  Bye bye equipment.

Nitecore NL1485 14500 850mAh 3.7V Protected Lithium Ion (Li-ion).  I consider Nitecore a reputable brand, but that is an untested opinion only.
https://www.batteryjunction.com/nitecore-nl1485-14500-battery.html?msclkid=2f519302cf2b1fd9a729cc88bc219d36

Rather than Nitecore, just go straight for Sanyo/Panasonic UR14500P 840mAh cell, red one at below photo, bought it while ago together with with my new Lumintop EDC05 AA sized flashlight, capable of using Alkaline/NiMh or Li-Ion cell (with twice the brightness) and won't over discharge either types.

 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Ban of non-rechargeable batteries
« Reply #111 on: October 17, 2020, 05:01:05 pm »
There are no rechargeables with a lifetime of 20 years of continuous duty

I have some Sanyo 1650mAH NiMH from 1999 (before Eneloop) that can still be used.  I gave them to my son once I had enough Eneloops and he uses in his Lego motor power box.  Some of my Eneloops are 1 years old now and still going.

We have a Dust Buster from the mid 80s at our cabin that still has the original NiCd batteries in it. It doesn't run very long but remarkably it does still work.
 


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