Ban of non-rechargeable batteries

[FriedLogic]

One issue with rechargeable batteries is that they often have very high short circuit currents. I get a bit nervous about putting them into cheap junk or things not designed with them in mind.

[edy]

My Tecsun shortwave radio (PL-310ET) takes 3 AA batteries. You can choose between 2 different modes... either to put in regular batteries or set it to NiMH batteries. When you set it to NiMH batteries, it lets you charge them inside the radio through the mini USB port!



Great solution to use standard AA size NiMH (and not some custom internal battery pack). This way I can easily swap them out with a new set of charged batteries if needed, or plug it in the wall to charge them in the radio (while the radio is still on even)! I wish more devices were designed like that!

[M0HZH]

...

You are trolling, right? Because you have picked exactly the one use case where rechargeable batteries are a poor choice because of poor self-discharge behavior and low current requirements.  And built your entire argument on that 

AA cells are used in tons of other things than clocks and TV remotes - many toys (e.g. Legos, Furbys, ...), some cheap cameras, wireless game controllers (e.g. Xbox, Oculus Quest, Wii ...), some home appliances use them (various mini vaccuum cleaners, electric potato peelers, etc.).

If you have kids and they have a game console that uses a game controller powered by AA cells, you will realize the advantage of having recheargeables on hand pretty quickly. E.g. my Quest goes through a set of batteries in the controllers every few days when I am using it regularly. And no, an integrated lithium battery wouldn't be better - AA cell you can swap and continue playing, with a non-replaceable battery you are SOL until it recharges, so Oculus (and Nintendo before them) knew exactly why they decided to use AAs instead.

Remotes are by far the most common use for AA / AAA cells. Other common uses also have the same profile, low power long life: clocks, thermostats, doorbells, sensors, wireless mice / keyboards etc. The recent game controllers from Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo are rechargeable now, digital cameras have made the switch long time ago and all the other stuff is a small market comparatively.

The only area where it might be more economical to use rechargeables is with toys. Even if the number of users is low (1 in 10 households ?) the use is quite intense for a few years, so it's probably more cost effective to use rechargeables.

[Circlotron]

We’ve got a wireless keyboard near the tv pc and it has solar cells on it. Been going okay for maybe ten years. Never have to put it by the window, just leave it sitting in the middle of the room. Might take a bit of extra space, but a remote could also have them.

[John B]

I think Aldi, in Aus at least, has battery recycling drop off bins. In fact, many businesses do, ie battery stores for old alkaline or lead batteries, mobile phones, auto places for waste oil etc. Maybe something nearby to you has that facility.

[NiHaoMike]

Also they also can leak and leave corrosive residues as they are still water-salt based.

Even cheap NiMH batteries rarely leak, far less often than even good quality alkaline.

[rdl]

One of the main reasons I switched to rechargeable was damage caused by leaking alkaline cells. Doesn't have to happen very often to wipe out years of cost savings.

Also they also can leak and leave corrosive residues as they are still water-salt based.

Even cheap NiMH batteries rarely leak, far less often than even good quality alkaline.

[greenpossum]

I haven't bought any alkaline batteries for remotes and other low usage locations for years, I use the "worn out" batteries from the ones supplied with new equipment. Imagine the manufacturing waste if I were to tie up rechargeables in such locations. For high drain uses of course rechargeables make sense.

There's a bunch of fanatics in a local forum promoting Eneloops for everything without thinking.

[all_repair]

Not all rechargeable are the same.  The value of using rechargeable is if you can efficiently use up its lifetime vs the one-time-use-battery.  For individual use, it is manageable, but when the usage  involves other, rechargeable battery can become one-time-use battery oftenly.  I have to keep educating and reminding people what batteries are rechargeable, and not throw them off and how to recharge them  . 

[schmitt trigger]

On the bright side, portable electronic devices have reduced its power consumption significantly as technology advanced.

Other than smallish transistor radios, most devices back then would use C batteries, at least 6 of them. Then they became 6 AAs, then 4, 3 or 2. Nowadays AAAs are the most popular format, with some devices using a single AAA cell.

Now, I know, I know. I am comparing apples to oranges.
But my point stands: far more capable devices require far less power.

[Halcyon]

Every year we throw billions of empty batteries in landfills.

In your opinion, why is this obsolete piece of technology so difficult to eradicate?

You suggest it's "obsolete" yet we go through billions of them? Isn't that a contradiction? I know in my house the number of single-use batteries significantly outnumber rechargeable equivalents and at this stage there are several applications where it's not feasible to use rechargeable batteries. Smoke alarms are one example. NiMH replacements have a lower voltage so you'll find yourself getting up on the ladder a lot sooner to recharge/replace them. Shelf-life and self-discharge is another issue, particularly in devices with a very low or no standby current draw, again, smoke alarms come to mind. Most of them here are hard-wired so they only rely on the battery when the power is out.

As for a solution: Perhaps manufacture them from materials which will breakdown and corrode more readily when exposed to the elements (like a garbage tip)?

[CatalinaWOW]

I know many of you are satisfied with your rechargeable batteries, but until the last few years I have not found any that satisfied me.  The technologies have changed over time.  NiCads were a disaster on life and bad for the environment.  NiMH are better on life, but haven't really filled the bill.  The Li chemistry batteries used in power tools have finally achieved useful life, but are incredibly expensive.  How many of you are totally happy with the rechargeables in your laptops or cell phones.  They meet the use case, but are often a primary reason for replacing the machine.

For a wide variety of applications the alkaline cell is just more user friendly.  In spite of its known faults.  Rechargeables do meet a need in some applications.  Usually high current, high use things like toys and electric shavers, but the field is wide open for a really good rechargeable battery.

[coppercone2]

its like banning a energy density class of devices. primary cells are always going to be impressive in terms of energy density.

how about no. This is LALA land green power shit

coin cells? d primary cells? they are BEASTS. The trick is to design equipment so it can brave a leak. And they offer product designers an easy entry to market. 2$ for 30Wh and it can be sold with no problems in ANY store without any precautions.

I actually switched my wall clocks to NiMH and I am thinking of switching them back to alkaline, there is little benefit there.

Not that it would hurt the industry to develop more efficient recycling methods, but they are a useful technology.

The main problem is that device manufacturers specify the wrong cell or try to use a cell in a system without cutoffs or high off drain (the leaky soft switch FUCKED UP the battery industry). If you are making a battery device, please read the chapter in Art Of Electronics on soft switches and talk to your OEM distributor about life expectancy from quiescent drain.. you won't be disappointed if you follow the rules.

And make the batteries easy to replace with good quality snap hinges or latches (there is a real problem here, if you need to undo 4 screws to change some batteries, chances are the person that is using the device is thinking ALOT more about leaks because its time consuming and annoying to switch batteries. Also, make it so you don't need to use a tool to get the batteries out (the little ribbon that you yank on under the batteries helps so much). Might mean more expensive mechanical design but if you make it easy, and pleasant, those batteries are much more likely to get replaced.

Shitty snap hinges that break and lead to fixes with sticky tape coverings are no good either.

Alkaline devices have a bad reputation because there are some seriously bad device producers and some seriously bad batteries to go with it, some people get by chance, stuck mixing bad devices and bad batteries and they go crazy. And, with the advent of the soft switch, they can have a defective device that makes all batteries go bad and leaky, because a transistor broke and its drawing unusually high currents when its turned off.

[james_s]

I haven't bought disposable AA batteries in at least 10 years, I'm always surprised at how widespread they still are, I consider them obsolete beyond a few niche uses. I don't really like outright bans of anything however I'd be ok with a modest tax on disposable batteries to subsidize rechargeable types. People have demonstrated time after time that most are either incapable or unwilling to grasp the total cost of ownership. Many people even still use "cheap" incandescent lamps, completely oblivious to the fact that the majority of the cost of a lamp is the electricity to run it.

My Eneloop batteries have paid for themselves many times over. For every remote or clock there are 10 other devices I have that drain the cells much faster so ultimately it's economical to have a pile of fungible NiMH cells that I use in everything. The only disposable alkaline batteries I ever buy anymore are D cells for my Roomba virtual walls, true D NiMH cells are rare and expensive. Most are just a AA inside a D size housing.

[james_s]

Remotes are by far the most common use for AA / AAA cells. Other common uses also have the same profile, low power long life: clocks, thermostats, doorbells, sensors, wireless mice / keyboards etc. The recent game controllers from Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo are rechargeable now, digital cameras have made the switch long time ago and all the other stuff is a small market comparatively.

The only area where it might be more economical to use rechargeables is with toys. Even if the number of users is low (1 in 10 households ?) the use is quite intense for a few years, so it's probably more cost effective to use rechargeables.

I have 3 remotes in active use, I can probably whittle that down to 2 if I can be bothered to get my media player working with the same remote I use for my TV. I have loads of other stuff that uses AA's, flashlights, portable test equipment, electric toothbrush, wireless thermometers, weather station consoles (AA's in C adapters), label printer, handheld video games, I'm sure there's some other stuff I'm overlooking. I'm not sure how many NiMH cells I have but there are at several dozen AA and AAA's at least.

[coppercone2]

look at powerex and tenergy for rechargable D cells (better then those ridiculous adapters). With LSD technology it makes sense to use larger NiMH cells for D and C applications. Those adapters are a serious stopgap measure and for emergencies. I hate how its wasted space.

The way to find if a D or C cell is good : look at capacity 4000+ for a C and 8000 for D (less then a primary C or D). The rechargable cell is like a Zinc Carbon without the leaking problems. A bit better I think.

The tradeoff with NiMH is that if you put low self discharge technology in it, it lowers the capacity at the benefit of extending life.. most battery manufacturers sell 2 types because it makes sense to (a battery hungry super flashlight thats actually used and not an emergency light will benefit from high capacity higher self discharge batteries)..

But IMO, you either go with Alkaline or with NiMH LSD, in most cases, the high self discharge batteries are too frustrating to use IMO. Its like stuff for businesses where you can put a flashlight on a work truck that gets used alot and will also be recharged as a result of employee training), or for calculated use (i.e. keep a set handy for putting into a data logger or such that you know will be used for sure within some time frame). Using batteries right requires planning. Those high self discharge batteries IMO are too situational, when you need them even for a known duration event they will likely be uncharged and it will delay you to use them, so alkaline is great. I am not willing to go into that level of management. They do however serve a purpose...

Also for some operations if you consider TIME and MONEY, it makes sense to just throw the things out instead of bothering with recharging them, since its faster and you get more throughput.

[tooki]

Every year we throw billions of empty batteries in landfills.

Many ideas have been discussed over the years, many projects have been drafted (e.g.: AA cells with Micro-USB charging feature), yet still every remote of the planet keeps eating standard AA/AAA cells.

In your opinion, why is this obsolete piece of technology so difficult to eradicate? Is the problem on the technical side or more on the political side?

Thank you in advance for all your thoughts.

Just because a product or technology has been around for a long time doesn’t make it obsolete. Wire is an old technology, but it’s hardly obsolete. Jars are ancient technology, and still absolutely relevant today.

The fact is, with lithium ion batteries being such cheap, good performers, I’d hazard that most applications where rechargeable makes sense already ship that way.

Infrared remote controls probably make up the vast majority of standard-cell powered devices in my home. Everything with even slightly higher power consumption is already inherently rechargeable, from phones to speakers to flashlights. (The only device I can think of that really uses rechargeable AAs is my old Apple trackpad. I use it with NiMH. But the newer version of that device, the one sold for many years now, uses lithium ion.)

[coppercone2]

having to recharge stuff in a pinch sucks and it sucks even more for businesses. They will LAUGH at the cost of batteries for the stuff they do. Its debilitating to maintain space and procedures for charging.

Basically you are getting into 'fleet ownership' when you go into rechargeable batteries. Disposable keeps things running so long the stores are open. The last thing some office needs is some battery nazi telling people to recharge stuff all the time.

So I can come home and I want to cook meat then some batteries need to be charged for a thermometer because I was busy with things and I got to find a charger and plug stuff in and give me a fucking break just put some god damn AA's in the fucking thing and GET ON WITH LIFE.

[tooki]

Yep. And they’re so cheap that for critical applications, they’ll replace them preventatively, dead or not. For example medical devices. But also things like wireless microphones for concerts. Spending $20 for all new batteries is peanuts compared to the cost of having a $200,000 event not go smoothly.

[coppercone2]

Yep. And they’re so cheap that for critical applications, they’ll replace them preventatively, dead or not. For example medical devices. But also things like wireless microphones for concerts. Spending $20 for all new batteries is peanuts compared to the cost of having a $200,000 event not go smoothly.

I think your numbers are too high. Delays piss off people in events very quickly. I would do it for a 500$ profit show at a bar. Cost of doing business. Like you want to delay drunk people for 30 seconds so you can put money in your pocket at the end of the night. Think of business like that scene in the movie 'oceans 11'.

I think that some people in this thread would pull out a fucking dynamo and spend 30 minutes cranking the thing to fix the detonator for a bank robbery.

[tooki]

That made me literally laugh out loud!

Reminded me of the people on Extreme Cheapskates who wash their used paper towels with soap and water and then hang them up to dry.

[GlennSprigg]

The 'problem' I have at times with 'AA' 'Rechargeables' is in the likes of some Cameras etc.
Rechargeables are typically 1.2v instead of 1.5v. So "Low Battery" comes on too early!!! 
P.S...
Re: say 'AA' batteries in general... you can tell when they are 'CRAP' due to their WEIGHT!!!
When a pack of 4 'Duracells' weighs as much as a 12-pack of cheapo garbage!!   
P.P.S...
Any company, including 'Eveready' etc, can EASILY make normal 'disposable' batteries last
10 times longer!, but deliberately DONT due to simple economics for the company!!!   

[janoc]

Remotes are by far the most common use for AA / AAA cells. Other common uses also have the same profile, low power long life: clocks, thermostats, doorbells, sensors, wireless mice / keyboards etc.

That sounds more like you are extrapolating from what you have at home, not any serious numbers.

The recent game controllers from Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo are rechargeable now,

Um, nope:

New Xbox controllers:
https://www.vg247.com/2020/03/31/why-xbox-series-x-controller-aa-batteries/

The Oculus controllers I have mentioned already. Nintendo Wii/Wii-U controllers were never rechargeable, Switch's Joycons can use AAs as well in the form of an external battery pack:

https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/22775/~/joy-con-aa-battery-pack-faq

Valve's Steam controller uses AAs too.

Only the Sony gamepads use internal rechargeable batteries, as do PS Move controllers (used by the Playstation VR system). Also some XBox controllers were available in a both rechargeable and AA powered versions.

digital cameras have made the switch long time ago and all the other stuff is a small market comparatively.

Again, nope. Granted, most digital cameras use lithium cells these days but not all - and I am not speaking about the various disposable cameras:

https://www.ephotozine.com/article/top-10-best-aa-battery-powered-cameras-2019-20942

There are also accessories like this battery grip for Canon cameras:

https://www.amazon.com/Powerextra-Battery-AA-size-Infrared-batteries/dp/B01NA7J50G

These are quite popular by pros because it is always better to run to a store and grab a set of AAs than to be screwed because all your batteries are flat due to some unforeseen event  and something important is about to happen.

[edy]

Not sure if anyone brought up NiCd batteries yet... they also have benefits in certain applications. While many people think Lithium variants have supplanted everything, NiCd are still used in a lot of devices. They are quite resilient, usually sit on a trickle-charger 24-7 and ready for use when needed. I have NiCd's in devices over 20 years old that I still use, fairly forgiving and have their applications. Many home appliances like shavers, toothbrushes, cordless phones, drills, vacuums, etc... use these. Also one of my old Tamiya 1980's era remote control cars uses a 7.2v NiCd pack, still performing after over 30 years.

Unfortunately many appliances use non-standard NiCd battery sizes or create serially-connected "packs" of batteries soldered together and wrapped in some plastic (or hidden inside the device) with some custom wire connector. One of the cells in the middle of the pack may get bad, or need individual reconditioning. If you could separate the pack, or if the device allowed you to insert individual cells you could likely find the culprit, recondition or replace the bad cell and keep using it for much longer.

I think we all understand that different battery technologies exist and persist because each has different applications for which they are most optimal. There is no "ideal" rechargeable yet that fits every single situation, hence the need for both one-use and rechargeable energy sources. Banning is not an option, but educating users and controlling the waste stream is the key.

I personally test out all my batteries (especially from the high-drain devices) at the end of their useful life and will typically re-purpose them into lower-drain devices (like remotes) that typically sit on standby. Usually the battery voltage in a high-drain device will tank quickly and not be able to stay above the operating voltage (of a toy car, for example). But put it into a remote or keyboard that uses very little current draw, and the voltage coming out of the "dead" battery is still good enough to last a long time.   

[schmitt trigger]

"different battery technologies exist and persist because each has different applications for which they are most optimal."

Exactly!

Is a little bit like opamps. If there was a single device which was the "best" across all applications, only that paticular number would sell.
But we have 100s of different opamps, each serving an specific requirement, sometimes very niche.