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“Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
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Miyuki:

--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 16, 2021, 01:09:41 pm ---
--- Quote ---that will require a significantly higher peak power delivery from the grid and the storage, that's a lot of extra power on a Friday afternoon
--- End quote ---

But instead of fuel tanks you could have on-site BFO batteries which charge 24/7, and the cars take their charge primarily from this on-site storage.

--- End quote ---
Sounds like a great case for Flywheel energy storage
nctnico:

--- Quote from: Marco on November 16, 2021, 10:25:42 am ---
--- Quote from: wraper on November 16, 2021, 08:02:07 am ---It the area a filling station takes, you can install many times more charging stalls. Which are also much cheaper.

--- End quote ---

If on demand fast chargers are supposed to be the solution for everyone without a driveway that will require a significantly higher peak power delivery from the grid and the storage, that's a lot of extra power on a Friday afternoon, not sure if it will be cheaper. In fact I suspect it would be so expensive that fast charging would be done on appointment (with on demand fast charging possible with higher cost per kwh). Either way, less convenient than just extremely high density of roadside slow chargers.

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If you ponder on this a bit; hydrogen is cheaper for long term storage and those peak loads are happening only during parts of the day. If you go a step further you could have a large tank of hydrogen next to a charging station with a hydrogen to electricity converter. But then again, why not fill a car with hydrogen and skip the stationary hydrogen to electricity conversion which needs to deliver an extreme peak power compared to a smaller fuel cell inside the car?

Roadside slow chargers are also expensive. The operator will need to do installation and maintenance as well. My estimate is that a public charger costs around 5k to 10k euro over a period of 10 years. That has to come from of the pocket of 2 or 3 users. In the Netherlands alone they estimate to need 5 million charging points. Even at 5k euro each that is a cost of 25 billion euros.
PlainName:

--- Quote ---Sounds like a great case for Flywheel energy storage
--- End quote ---

I wouldn't want to be living next door to it.
tom66:

--- Quote from: nctnico on November 16, 2021, 01:52:07 pm ---If you ponder on this a bit; hydrogen is cheaper for long term storage and those peak loads are happening only during parts of the day. If you go a step further you could have a large tank of hydrogen next to a charging station with a hydrogen to electricity converter. But then again, why not fill a car with hydrogen and skip the stationary hydrogen to electricity conversion which needs to deliver an extreme peak power compared to a smaller fuel cell inside the car?
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Because hydrogen is really a last-resort fuel for applications where batteries don't have the energy density.

Sure, EVs are not suitable everywhere and there probably will be hydrogen vehicles like trucks, aircraft, boats and trains.

For cars, there is already plenty dense Li-Ion technology to get a 30kEUR car to 250 miles range.  What problem is hydrogen solving here for the enormous additional cost?  A reduction in "charging" times to 5-10 minutes in ideal conditions, but with the removal of all home charging options and a substantial reduction in overall efficiency - I don't buy it as a practical alternative.  It'll chug along for a decade or so but I reckon even Toyota will give up on it eventually.  EVs getting to 200kW+ fast charging on a 'regular' basis will completely eliminate its viability.
PlainName:

--- Quote ---200kW+ fast charging
--- End quote ---

I guess USB-C isn't going to cut the mustard on this one.
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