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| “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV” |
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| nctnico:
--- Quote from: tom66 on November 16, 2021, 05:10:33 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on November 16, 2021, 01:52:07 pm ---If you ponder on this a bit; hydrogen is cheaper for long term storage and those peak loads are happening only during parts of the day. If you go a step further you could have a large tank of hydrogen next to a charging station with a hydrogen to electricity converter. But then again, why not fill a car with hydrogen and skip the stationary hydrogen to electricity conversion which needs to deliver an extreme peak power compared to a smaller fuel cell inside the car? --- End quote --- Because hydrogen is really a last-resort fuel for applications where batteries don't have the energy density. Sure, EVs are not suitable everywhere and there probably will be hydrogen vehicles like trucks, aircraft, boats and trains. For cars, there is already plenty dense Li-Ion technology to get a 30kEUR car to 250 miles range. What problem is hydrogen solving here for the enormous additional cost? A reduction in "charging" times to 5-10 minutes in ideal conditions, but with the removal of all home charging options and a substantial reduction in overall efficiency - I don't buy it as a practical alternative. It'll chug along for a decade or so but I reckon even Toyota will give up on it eventually. EVs getting to 200kW+ fast charging on a 'regular' basis will completely eliminate its viability. --- End quote --- You are not getting the core of the problem: unless you charge a BEV from your own outlet, it will be too expensive to operate compared to (bio)fuel and/or hydrogen. Or put differently: what is going to put a stop to BEV adoption at some point is the lack of people who can charge a BEV from their own outlets. |
| tom66:
--- Quote from: nctnico on November 16, 2021, 05:37:24 pm ---You are not getting the core of the problem: unless you charge a BEV from your own outlet, it will be too expensive to operate compared to (bio)fuel and/or hydrogen. Or put differently: what is going to put a stop to BEV adoption at some point is the lack of people who can charge a BEV from their own outlets. --- End quote --- I don't agree with the premise. As I stated before the time an EV needs to spend charging is about 5% of its time spent on the road, even if it's only a 7kW post. This can be done at work, on the street, at the supermarket, at the mall, wherever... And 50% of those owning a car will be able to charge at home, because they have off street parking or a driveway. It is all about providing opportunity charging. Stop thinking about charging like it's refuelling. It's not. It's more like grazing for electrons. Yes we do need thousands of chargers, but your 25 billion EUR assessment seems crazy to me. The local council installed a small number of EV chargers and they were under the 5kEUR figure you quote for 7kW, this was just for two at a time. Fill a car park with 40 and the cost will fall even further. |
| nctnico:
Doesn't matter how or when a BEV gets charged from public chargers. Just take a piece of paper and start adding the cost for the charging infrastructure. You'll see the costs are massive and there needs to be a ROI on top at some point. |
| SiliconWizard:
--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 16, 2021, 01:09:41 pm --- --- Quote ---that will require a significantly higher peak power delivery from the grid and the storage, that's a lot of extra power on a Friday afternoon --- End quote --- But instead of fuel tanks you could have on-site BFO batteries which charge 24/7, and the cars take their charge primarily from this on-site storage. --- End quote --- True. But then you're adding one more layer, so decreased efficiency. |
| tom66:
--- Quote from: nctnico on November 16, 2021, 05:50:27 pm ---Doesn't matter how or when a BEV gets charged from public chargers. Just take a piece of paper and start adding the cost for the charging infrastructure. You'll see the costs are massive and there needs to be a ROI on top at some point. --- End quote --- Do you know how much a car parking space costs? A flat tarmacked space in a standard car park is about 8000 EUR. A multi-storey car park is close to 40,000 EUR/space. On street is effectively 'nil' at present because we don't charge anyone to park their vehicle on the road (with some exceptions for city centres etc.) But, if it was priced according to the road surface area, it'd probably be similar to the standard car parking space. Of course someone pays for this - so why are you so concerned about +800-2000 EUR for a charger per space? |
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