“Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”

[james_s]

My understanding is that 20000 mi is actually probably fine for full synthetic oil in most engines and 5000 mi is total overkill (at least after the break in service).  The main problem is the oil filter not the oil itself which can break down over time depending on conditions.  If you go to a shop it makes sense to change both but if you just do it yourself changing out the oil filter and topping up the oil is fine, only draining the oil much less often.

If I waited 20,000 miles that would be several years to a decade depending on which of my cars, I think it would leak out or blow past the seals in the turbo well before that interval. Maybe it would be fine to go longer but oil is relatively cheap and turbos really cook it, especially the old oil cooled turbo on my 240, the later ones have a water jacket and run a LOT cooler.

[tom66]

It is probably due to the short-cycling the engine does, but the oil change interval on the Golf GTE is half that of the standard Golf, at 1yr/10,000 mile intervals.  The electric motor periodically turns the engine over, even if not recently used, to keep parts lubricated.  About once every few minutes.

[MadScientist]

That makes no sense at all. House charging is the single biggest benefit of an EV, you just plug it in at home and trickle charge overnight, you never have to go looking for fuel, it's just full every morning. Charging stations are for people who cannot charge at home but still want an EV, and to alleviate range anxiety and allow for the occasional longer trip. Even Tesla has stated that their intent is for most charging to occur at home, that's the whole plan. I get that not everyone can charge at home, my dad was in that category and he made use of Superchargers and destination charging to charge his Tesla but everyone I currently know who has one plugs it in at home. Home charging is an absolutely huge feature, it's fantastic, it's something that every EV owner I know loves about their car.

Seriously, I love my old gas car, but if it were possible for me to trickle fuel into it overnight in my driveway or garage and have a full tank every time I go out somewhere, I would gladly give up the ability to fill up quickly at a gas station. I absolutely hate having to go get gas, it's always some inopportune time when I realize I need it, seems like it's always either cold and windy or roasting hot out, it's always out of my way, I hate the smell of gas stations, it's probably my least favorite aspect of car ownership.

Home charging has little future , in the uk the typical house limit is 60kw , and hence a 32 amp circuit is the max feasible limit. ( in fact for 32A you’ll need priority switching in some cases ) in fact many installers will only fit 16a EVSE in many cases.

Modern EVs currently have 60 kWh and trending towards 100 kWh batteries. , recharging 60kwh , on a 32A circuit takes 8 hours ( including taper charging ) , recharging 100kWh will be practically impossible in the typical night time available ( usually 12 -6am )

Hence home charging will be a fill-in activity

Remember the average mileage per week in the uk is very low. Most users drive short distances each day. With 60-100kWh batteries these users might only charge once a  fortnight.  These are most likely to take place at very high energy delivery sites.

Furthermore various grid studies show the primary concern of grid managers vis a vie EV charging is high density home charging at coordinated times like night time. The typically suburban estate ( with driveways ) has an electrical infrastructure simply incapable of supporting high density coordinated charging. The cost and sheer inconvenience makes it virtually impossible to upgrade this houses.

The future therefore is high energy specialised charging sites , rather exactly as petrol is done today. Home charging will be incidental.

On top of that smart metering will in time penalise home charging of EVs , both by increasing the cost of  the time of charge where  co-ordinated charging is happening , ie night time. Smart meters are largely grid/ generator promoted as they want to monetised inelastic electricity usage times. 

[MadScientist]

On the plus side (for the filling station) they'll have a captive audience to sell stuff to, just like the airlines get to make you walk through shopping centers en route to the aircraft (and than sit in cafes for 2 hours).

I'll bet shopping malls are early adopters.  They are common at pharmacies around here.  But, really, there's nothing to do in a pharmacy.  But put them in a mall and watch sales grow.

No , average high energy charge times are way less then the average shopping trip, and low energy charging is far too long. The supermarket idea isn’t working and the trend is dedicated high energy sites rather like petrol filling stations. Not least because the energy feed requirements need dedicated sites. Furthermore EVs charging needs canopies and weather protection and supermarkets are not that interested

Ireland has comprehensive fast charging for 5 years. The trend has been away from shops and rather into filling station forecourts especially high throughput motorway service areas.

[MadScientist]

So even after 1000000 km should be about 2/3 of the original capacity
That is still a reasonable range to use
And no issue when used as a second car

It's almost as if people forget that ICE engine cars don't typically last beyond 200,000 miles.

My old Ford Focus was an economical write off, the engine was burning oil at 135,000 miles.  My old Peugeot had coolant leaks in the cylinder at 115,000 miles that could be temporarily fixed with "RadSeal", but led to oil slowly making its way into the coolant.  The Japanese marques might do better, certainly.  But I still doubt they'll outlive an EV with a stable, liquid cooled battery.

Truth most modern engines need new piston rings at about 100,000 miles
And head gasket failure is in most cases a consequence of failure in the cooling system

Both are easy to repair and parts are cheap, but takes about a day or two of service work what can be an issue and not many services do this kind of work today. They do just the easy repairs 

But also there is plenty of ICE that fail to metallurgy fatigue at about 150,000-200,000
As they are engineered this way to make them cheaper while most owners do not use cars this long
ICE can be easily built to last 1,000,000 km but it does not make much economic sense as it makes it more expensive to manufacture and might slightly increase fuel consumption plus people do not like to ride in 20,30,... years old car

Modern engines last much longer then their predecessors , in my dads time an engine was clapped out at 100,000 miles, these days 200,000 is not uncommon even more , and no new engines don’t need pistons rings at 100,000 miles that’s BS.

[MadScientist]

It the area a filling station takes, you can install many times more charging stalls. Which are also much cheaper.

If on demand fast chargers are supposed to be the solution for everyone without a driveway that will require a significantly higher peak power delivery from the grid and the storage, that's a lot of extra power on a Friday afternoon, not sure if it will be cheaper. In fact I suspect it would be so expensive that fast charging would be done on appointment (with on demand fast charging possible with higher cost per kwh). Either way, less convenient than just extremely high density of roadside slow chargers.

Large scale Slow charging is not an option in general , firstly urban planners are determined to limit long term street parking in urban areas, in most cases on street car parking charges are not suspended and hence long term charging becomes really expensive. Thirdly, cabling infrastructure isn’t up to the job. Lastly increasing battery capacity renders slow charging as merely opportunistic rather then required as a significant proportion of the battery cannot be returned in the typical time available.

Grid operators will tell you it’s far easier to feed a limited number of very high demand sites , these will usually be new builds on green field sites. Feeding a lot of medium consumption areas , like on street charging is far more disruptive and costly.

Currently around me the trend is 6-10 fast chargers in big motorway junction sites. These are all installed by commercial companies. ( ionity etc )

[MadScientist]

Batteries to day already meet 80% of most people’s private motoring  needs

How will the other 20% manage?

Bus , train , ass and cart.

[MadScientist]

Thanks, for those who have nowhere to charge up a BEV, Hydrogen FCEV is the way forward...its faster to fill up.
Also, there will be Gov grants for HFCEV, because its way too dangerous to depend only  on lithium (as in BEV).
Sorry but, IMHO, I guess anyone who can drive for free on solar charged BEV, is going to want that to become the status quo.

Hydrogen is the Betamax of EV . It’s BEVs because that’s where policy makers , urban planners and motor car companies have placed their bets.

There is no HFCEV policy , no grants , because ...... there is no HFCEV cars.

[MadScientist]

And then the tax collector comes around and fines the employer for handing out freebies to the employees. In the NL 'free' EV charging for employees is an administrative nightmare.

Give it a rest man, that's the stupidest argument yet. It's a trivial matter to pass legislation to completely eliminate that hurdle. Even here in the USA with our back-asswards broken politics something like that is easily solved. Of course it doesn't need to be solved here because it's already not an issue, certain employers have been offering free EV charging for around a decade. Do you seriously not have employee perks in your country? That's bizarre.

Not tax free employee perks. Over here there are very strict limits on what employers can hand out for free and what counts as income. This legislation has been put in place to prevent employers paying employees with goods instead of money in order to evade taxes. This isn't trivial to change and you'd also need to think about how that is fair to people who come to work by bike or public transport. If you look at the big picture things are not simple.

It is as trivial as a stroke of a pen, Ireland eliminated overnight , the benefit in kind on employer provided EV charging .  Life’s not fair , but then Ireland has a tax rebated bike to work scheme for 10;years ( yiu buy a bike income tax free ) and an income tax rebated bus/rail scheme for annual ticket holders. It’s was EVs that were  being discriminated against

[james_s]

Home charging has little future , in the uk the typical house limit is 60kw , and hence a 32 amp circuit is the max feasible limit. ( in fact for 32A you’ll need priority switching in some cases ) in fact many installers will only fit 16a EVSE in many cases.

Modern EVs currently have 60 kWh and trending towards 100 kWh batteries. , recharging 60kwh , on a 32A circuit takes 8 hours ( including taper charging ) , recharging 100kWh will be practically impossible in the typical night time available ( usually 12 -6am )

Hence home charging will be a fill-in activity

Absolute nonsense. Home charging is very clearly the future, at least for those in the suburbs, Tesla has said so themselves and it is what literally every single one of the EV owners I know does and it works just fine. A 32A circuit can charge at around 15 miles of range per hour and that is way more than adequate for most driving people do. The problem is you are looking at this from a gas (petrol) mentality where you drive around for days until the tank is almost empty and then fill it all up at once. EV drivers don't do that, in most cases they plug in whenever/wherever the opportunity exists and top up. Someone may take a long trip and deplete most of their charge in which case they would stop at a fast charger to fill up, but most of the time they will just charge at home. Without the ability to charge at home there is very little point in owning an EV at all.

Also something is very wrong with your math, 60kW is 250A at 240V which is quite a bit higher than the standard 200A 240V residential service panels we have here in the USA, and here it is very common to install a 50 or even 70A 240V EV charging circuit. The Tesla wall charger supports up to 70A as I recall. The sum rating of the individual branch circuits is far higher than the rating of the main here, and I think that is the case in the UK too. I was thinking the typical UK service was more like 100A 240V, which is still more than adequate for a 50A or more EV charger.

[tom66]

Home charging has little future , in the uk the typical house limit is 60kw , and hence a 32 amp circuit is the max feasible limit. ( in fact for 32A you’ll need priority switching in some cases ) in fact many installers will only fit 16a EVSE in many cases.

I assume you mean 60A, to which I say, "bollocks!"  I have never lived in a home with less than 100A service.  60A homes do exist, but most of them are supplied with 80A cabling and DNOs will install 80A fuses FOR FREE, if the customer requests so.  That gives you an 18kW supply.  DNOs will let you have two EV chargers on 80A if you pass diversity, usually one 32A and one 16A, but sometimes you can have two limited to 20-24A if they support it.

Most of continental Europe has at least 3x16A service (~11kW) and 3x32A (~22kW) is also quite common.  The 3ph 16A people might need to limit themselves to 3.6kW single phase charging.  That's still plenty fast for most.

Modern EVs currently have 60 kWh and trending towards 100 kWh batteries. , recharging 60kwh , on a 32A circuit takes 8 hours ( including taper charging ) , recharging 100kWh will be practically impossible in the typical night time available ( usually 12 -6am )

Hence home charging will be a fill-in activity

Remember the average mileage per week in the uk is very low. Most users drive short distances each day. With 60-100kWh batteries these users might only charge once a  fortnight.  These are most likely to take place at very high energy delivery sites.

These statements are contradictory. Most EVs won't need to charge up much or at all on a given night because their batteries are big and their mileages are low.  And yet you think that we'll need to use rapid chargers for all EVs?  The reality is, EV charging will mostly happen at home, or parked on the street using slow AC chargers.  3.6kW is enough for 80% of the population every night, 7.2kW would be enough for 95% (my estimation).  Some EVs support more, Audi e-tron supports 40A single phase, and early Model S in Europe could charge at 63A single phase too, but I believe they have dropped that because the demand is so low.

Furthermore various grid studies show the primary concern of grid managers vis a vie EV charging is high density home charging at coordinated times like night time. The typically suburban estate ( with driveways ) has an electrical infrastructure simply incapable of supporting high density coordinated charging. The cost and sheer inconvenience makes it virtually impossible to upgrade this houses.

The typical suburban estate actually has sufficient capacity to supply 23kW to every home, it's the downstream DNO capacity where there are shortages.

The uptake of EVs will be over 10-15 years so DNOs will have sufficient time to upgrade. No doubt it will be a lot of work but heat pumps are another driver of this type of demand.

On top of that smart metering will in time penalise home charging of EVs , both by increasing the cost of  the time of charge where  co-ordinated charging is happening , ie night time. Smart meters are largely grid/ generator promoted as they want to monetised inelastic electricity usage times.

Well even on normal rates my (PH)EV is still much cheaper than petrol to run, about 5-6p/mile compared to 15p/mile.

Regarding cheap rates at night.  Some say they will go, others not so sure.  Personally I think as renewable energy becomes more common they will stay but the pricing will vary. Some nights no benefit others the price will plunge.

Right now there's roughly a 50% difference between daytime usage and nighttime usage.  If everyone switched over to EVs and average mileages didn't change, then overall electrical energy usage would go up by about 20%.  There would still be a night time gap.

The major advantage of a smart grid with EVs is it's dispatchable.  If there's excess demand you tell all the EVs to soak up now and drop the rates to incentivise this usage.  When there's a demand shortfall you reduce or stop charging altogether.  Customers can override, but they'll pay a bit more.  Some places in the US have a scheme where you can have your air-con scaled back in times of peak demand, this is exactly the same. And in the end, as long as your car has enough range for your next journey for the day, do you really care when it charges?

[james_s]

Several of the EV drivers I know charge almost exclusively from a 15A 120V receptacle because it's what they have available, the charger draws 13A and charges at about 5 miles of range per hour. The capacity of the batter is irrelevant, the primary charger need only supply enough energy to cover the average amount consumed between nightly charges and commutes over about 20 miles a day round trip are relatively uncommon. It's certainly nice to have faster options but they are only needed occasionally. Fast charging will degrade the battery faster than say <10kW.

[Marco]

Large scale Slow charging is not an option in general , firstly urban planners are determined to limit long term street parking in urban areas

Which they can only get away with when there is an extreme limit in available homes AND voters don't wake up to the fact they do have power. Sure, if those kinds of idiots are sufficiently politically entrenched normal people might have to vote for someone Trumpian but if you push them far enough that is what they do.

Like 1% of people wants that for their housing, until they get a family and then they don't want it any more either.

As I said, any time you lay fiber you could in theory also lay down the cabling and pits for chargers at essentially no cost. Then you can just finish it when the distribution network is ready. For a competent government, high density roadside charging would not have been a problem.

[ejeffrey]

Home charging has little future

Wtf?

Home charging is going to be the dominant way people with EVs and homes charge always.

, in the uk the typical house limit is 60kw , and hence a 32 amp circuit is the max feasible limit. ( in fact for 32A you’ll need priority switching in some cases ) in fact many installers will only fit 16a EVSE in many cases.

That is fine.  16 a seems a little low but acceptable.

Modern EVs currently have 60 kWh and trending towards 100 kWh batteries. , recharging 60kwh , on a 32A circuit takes 8 hours ( including taper charging ) , recharging 100kWh will be practically impossible in the typical night time available ( usually 12 -6am )

Who cares?

Remember the average mileage per week in the uk is very low. Most users drive short distances each day. With 60-100kWh batteries these users might only charge once a  fortnight.

Or they could do what basically everyone with a driveway and an EV does which is to charge every night.  As long as they don't do back to back 300+ km journeys without a few days/nights to get back near full you don't have to worry and it doesn't matter if you can get a full charge overnight.  As long as you can comfortably charge more than an average days use in a single night it's fine.  32 amps is plenty for that and even 16A is often sufficient. 
 

The future therefore is high energy specialised charging sites , rather exactly as petrol is done today. Home charging will be incidental.

Nobody who has the option to home charge is ever going to do more than a incidental fraction of their charging at high power dedicated chargers. Even if they could charge in the 5 minutes it takes to pump gas.  It is a waste of time, money and effort.  Fast charging is an important option to have for long trips or back to back range limiting trips but not something people want to do regularly.

If you can't do the majority of your charging at home (or at work if you have that option) then an EV probably just isn't for you yet.  Which is fine.  We are far from saturating the potential EV drivers who can and infrastructure is rapidly expanding and will eventually be better at accommodating those who can't.

[PlainName]

The supermarket idea isn’t working and the trend is dedicated high energy sites rather like petrol filling stations.

There's a Tesla super-charging thingy down the road from here. About 20 berths, I think. I have only ever seen one car in there and every other time I've been past it is empty. My local supermarket, OTOH, has 4 berths and there is always at least one car on charge there.

[Nusa]

Tesla is planning to open up their charging network to non-Tesla cars, which will be a game-changer for the lesser brands. They're starting a pilot program in the Netherlands to see how it goes congestion-wise.

[richard.cs]

The typical suburban estate actually has sufficient capacity to supply 23kW to every home, it's the downstream DNO capacity where there are shortages.

Not across the whole estate at once though. A typical UK suburban estate might supply 80 properties per phase from a 500 kVA transformer. This might be as 4 to 6 three-phase cables radiating out from the substation with individual cables fused at 300-400 A each. That transformer might thermally cope with 600 kVA in cold weather and maybe 1 MW for an hour.

Mass EV home charging is a solvable problem, but it will need a combination of infrastructure upgrades and smarter charging, e.g. load management according to local substation load and temperature. The DNOs are aware of this, and are working on it. Well kinda, they're complaining about the cost and I suspect hoping the UK government will pay for it.

[Miyuki]

btw I was looking at the EV charging tariff and I think most of the continental European countries have similar
it offers at least 8 hours (as they say) between 6pm and 8am of very cheap electricity (even a little cheaper than classic peak/off-peak)
so if you let the utility company say when and how fast you are charging, you get electricity at about 50% of the common price

[tom66]

btw I was looking at the EV charging tariff and I think most of the continental European countries have similar
it offers at least 8 hours (as they say) between 6pm and 8am of very cheap electricity (even a little cheaper than classic peak/off-peak)
so if you let the utility company say when and how fast you are charging, you get electricity at about 50% of the common price

Yup.  My electricity is cheap from 8.30pm to 1.30am.  I get it at 5.5p/kWh, normal price is ~15p/kWh.

I actually manage to shift about 45% of my demand into the off-peak period, saving ~£400/year in electricity cost.  Since the electricity is cheap for whatever.  So tumble dryer, dishwasher, and car all run in this period, if needed.  I actively avoid running them any other time and plan the washing machine usage so I can use the off peak electricity as much as possible.

[MadScientist]

Unlike many here I actually own a BEV with 220,000km on it after 4 years. Sure I charge at home , on night rate , because it’s a 30 kWh  and I need all of it available the following day. It starts at 1am and finishers around 5 :30 am on a 32A ( sorry re the kW  mistype) EVSE circuit.   My dishwasher and washing machine run every night from the start of night rate till 12:45 am. My hot water heating begins after the EV has finally finished. If I needed more range the reality is I’m running out of time.

Today as most batteries are relatively small. , home charging is of course feasible. But as batteries increases towards 100kwh and beyond and as we see bigger and heavier BEVs. I don’t see domestic capacities being sufficient , leaving aside the DNO issues.

As smart chargers are rolling out I’m seeing 24 hour rolling rate changes. This is no good to me , my car charging time period is fixed as are many others. Electricity providers know smart tarrifing is for their benefit not yours.

[richard.cs]

EV batteries getting bigger doesn't really cause a problem for home charging unless people also drive more miles per day. If you changed from your 30 kWh EV to a 100 kWh one and kept the same driving pattern you'd not need any more energy overnight.

[ogden]

If you changed from your 30 kWh EV to a 100 kWh one and kept the same driving pattern you'd not need any more energy overnight.

Right. Most likely you won't do long trips every day. If you actually do - better reconsider your choice of transportation occupation.

[james_s]

Even if you only have 8 hours per night to charge that's around 120 miles per day of range, even if you assume people start driving ludicrously large and heavy EVs that can only charge 10 miles per hour from a 32A circuit that's still 80 miles a day. Figure most people will also have considerably more charging time available over the weekend assuming they aren't running around all weekend. The *vast* majority of people will have more than enough charging time, especially considering 8 hours a night is a very conservative estimate, 12+ hours is more likely. The only thing that matters is the average daily consumption vs the average daily recharge time. If you drive an unusually large amount you might visit a high powered charging station every now and then to get caught up but you'd still want to charge at home as often as practical. The more you charge at home the less of the more expensive electricity you'd need to buy from the public fast charger.

[PlainName]

As smart chargers are rolling out I’m seeing 24 hour rolling rate changes

That's something to think about. Overnight charging is cheap now because it's a dead period when people are mostly asleep and demand is low. Once EV charging is common, demand will be high and the price wil rise accordingly. It could get to the point where daytime charging (when everyone is driving) is cheaper!

[Miyuki]

As smart chargers are rolling out I’m seeing 24 hour rolling rate changes

That's something to think about. Overnight charging is cheap now because it's a dead period when people are mostly asleep and demand is low. Once EV charging is common, demand will be high and the price wil rise accordingly. It could get to the point where daytime charging (when everyone is driving) is cheaper!

How many hours a day do you drive 1, 2, do not tell me you drive more than 2 hours a day
The rest of the time car just sits somewhere and can scavenge low demand/renewable production peaks from the network
Grid is enough "smart" for it even today
And how long it will take till BEV will be the majority? 10, 15 years?