Author Topic: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”  (Read 43912 times)

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Online tom66

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #225 on: November 21, 2021, 12:20:02 pm »
How many hours a day do you drive 1, 2, do not tell me you drive more than 2 hours a day
The rest of the time car just sits somewhere and can scavenge low demand/renewable production peaks from the network
Grid is enough "smart" for it even today
And how long it will take till BEV will be the majority? 10, 15 years?

This - almost every EV comes with a 'smart app'.  There is even a reverse-engineered API for my vehicle:
https://github.com/trocotronic/weconnect

I have been using this to start and stop charging remotely with charging to a specific state of charge (as the car always charges to 100% when on the timer function, and I don't always need 100%, even with a PHEV.)

The connectivity of the vehicle to the grid will be very important.
 

Offline not1xor1

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #226 on: November 21, 2021, 03:56:13 pm »
the last nail on the coffin  :)

https://theconversation.com/we-must-rapidly-decarbonise-road-transport-but-hydrogens-not-the-answer-166830
Quote
In fact, hydrogen vehicles and vehicles that run on petrol or diesel have a similarly low energy performance: just 15-30% of the available energy in the fuels is used for actual driving. Compare this to battery electric vehicles, which use 70-90% of the available energy.

In other words, the amount of renewable energy required for a green hydrogen vehicle to drive one kilometre is the same as what’s required for three electric vehicles to drive the same distance.
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #227 on: November 21, 2021, 04:59:56 pm »
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How many hours a day do you drive 1, 2, do not tell me you drive more than 2 hours a day

What's driving got to do with it? The thing is where the car is, and daytime it is likely not at home. Doesn't matter where on Earth it is - the point is it is not at home sucking up premium rate electricity. When it IS at home, it is likely to be cheap rate electricity.

So, as an energy supplier, you look at your graphs and think, "Hang on, we are giving them cheap energy when we don't have that much available and could sell it twice over because everyone wants to charge their EV. WTF? Why is it cheap rate?"

If the car is at <your workplace> the chances are it's not getting a discount on juice because businesses are kind of known for needing lots of power, all at the same time, which is why daytime usage isn't cheap rate. If you plug in there and never charge at home, this little bit of the discussion doesn't involve you. I will just remind you that not a million messages ago the overriding feeling is the home charging is going to be The Thing.
 

Offline Miyuki

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #228 on: November 21, 2021, 05:44:42 pm »
A common day in Europe is like this
As solars kick in during the day prices fall
So "they" have plenty of electricity that needs to be used somewhere and EV charging is a great opportunity
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #229 on: November 21, 2021, 08:51:25 pm »
1. What are those nice blue and red lines? Means nothing unless we know what they represent.

2. Doesn't matter if solar is fantastic enough to provide zero-cost charging during the day. We, or at least I, am not talking about daytime charging. I am talking about charging overnight. Blimey, doesn't anyone actually read this stuff of do y'all just look at pretty letters and then hit quote?
 

Offline richard.cs

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #230 on: November 21, 2021, 09:05:46 pm »
1. Her axes are labelled. It's Euros per MWh (red) and the other (blue) I think is demand in the slightly non obvious units of MWh per 1 hour bin which evens out to MW.
2. You just said workplace charging won't happen because electricity is expensive in the day, hence her response about daytime demand and prices.
 

Online Marco

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #231 on: November 21, 2021, 09:08:59 pm »
businesses are kind of known for needing lots of power, all at the same time
Lots is pushing it, compared to 24/7 industry it's very tame. It's just enough to make a difference price wise now with 24/7 fossil/nuclear and wind.

Between night time charging, increased electrical heating (morning/evening) and increased PV, that extra daytime usage from the service industry will likely get swamped in the future. The cheapest power will be in the middle of the day.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #232 on: November 21, 2021, 09:10:36 pm »
Quote
You just said workplace charging won't happen

Quote the exact part of the post where I said that, please.

You can't, because I didn't.
 

Offline richard.cs

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #233 on: November 21, 2021, 09:21:59 pm »
Quote
You just said workplace charging won't happen
Quote the exact part of the post where I said that, please.
My apologies, what you actually said was:
If the car is at <your workplace> the chances are it's not getting a discount on juice...
My point remains, you brought up daytime, and Miyuki responded to that.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #234 on: November 21, 2021, 09:52:04 pm »
Thank you.
 

Offline not1xor1

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #235 on: November 25, 2021, 04:00:29 pm »
here is another article against hydrogen:
Hydrogen for ground transportation and heating is a bad idea
 

Online rstofer

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #236 on: November 25, 2021, 04:57:57 pm »
Quote
You just said workplace charging won't happen
Quote the exact part of the post where I said that, please.
My apologies, what you actually said was:
If the car is at <your workplace> the chances are it's not getting a discount on juice...
My point remains, you brought up daytime, and Miyuki responded to that.
It is already happening for many government service organizations and, were I still working, we would have been a leader in the installation of a bunch of charging stations.  It would have cost a LOT of money but the company would have done it anyway.

As I said earlier in this thread, we wouldn't have wanted people taking time off of task in order to swap parking places so we would have more than enough stations for everybody.

Some companies are like that!
 

Online tom66

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #237 on: November 25, 2021, 07:40:50 pm »
Everyone seems to be assuming that we retain the status quo ie generation capacity =~ supply.

The more likely outcome is generation capacity >> supply, especially if renewables are used.  This is because renewables can have poor yield, so if you want a nearly pure renewable grid you will need many times more capacity.  For the UK, think something like 150GW wind and 20-30GW solar.  (Current capacity is about 25GW wind and 14GW solar - though much of the solar capacity is domestic/workplace installs which aren't strictly suppliers.)   

The *side effect* is at many times during the day there will be gigawatts of extra capacity available that is otherwise going to be thrown away, so the cost per kWh will plummet.  This will create many times in the day when it is very cheap in the day to use energy and times in the day when it is much more expensive as supply is constrained and we begin to use storage (batteries, hydrogen, pumped) or go to backup fossil fuels (probably with carbon capture)

This is what the National Grid and other country's network distributors are planning on, it is not a matter of if but when we have this.  At the current rate wind power is being installed we are adding ca 3-5GW per year and the rate has historically been exponential, so this is likely to be the situation in a decade or two.

Hence the push for smart metering because without smart meters you cannot dynamically price energy, and there is no way to shift load around, the Grid would love to be able to tell your dishwasher to run at the best time, and your car charger.  There is a Dutch company that will pay you a small amount every month if you let them control when your car charges, as they can use this to reduce demand charges that the grid would otherwise face.
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #238 on: November 25, 2021, 07:51:50 pm »
The *side effect* is at many times during the day there will be gigawatts of extra capacity available that is otherwise going to be thrown away, so the cost per kWh will plummet.  This will create many times in the day when it is very cheap in the day to use energy and times in the day when it is much more expensive as supply is constrained and we begin to use storage (batteries, hydrogen, pumped) or go to backup fossil fuels (probably with carbon capture)

Good point. Wind/solar excess capacity could be used to "store" energy into hydrogen. However I still believe that hydrogen will be long haul transporation "fuel" while (ever improving) "Battery EV" will dominate consumer market.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #239 on: November 25, 2021, 09:23:45 pm »
Quote
The *side effect* is at many times during the day there will be gigawatts of extra capacity available that is otherwise going to be thrown away, so the cost per kWh will plummet.

Not necessarily. Someone has to pay for that excess capacity, so prices may stay the same for bright days but go UP for 'normal' days.

You might get cheap days now because they don't know what to do with the excess. But that's likely because it's not very common. Once it is common, the suppliers may well invest in storage so they can store the excess and play back when it's needed (think gigabatteries, pumped storage, etc). Of course, someone has to pay for that storage so, again, prices may well go up.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #240 on: November 25, 2021, 09:28:33 pm »
Quote
The *side effect* is at many times during the day there will be gigawatts of extra capacity available that is otherwise going to be thrown away, so the cost per kWh will plummet.

Not necessarily. Someone has to pay for that excess capacity, so prices may stay the same for bright days but go UP for 'normal' days.

You might get cheap days now because they don't know what to do with the excess. But that's likely because it's not very common. Once it is common, the suppliers may well invest in storage so they can store the excess and play back when it's needed (think gigabatteries, pumped storage, etc). Of course, someone has to pay for that storage so, again, prices may well go up.
I agree. In the NL electricity prices are pretty constant and the difference between day & night tariff is neglectible. AFAIK the reason is a cable between the Netherlands and Norway where the excess energy is stored & retrieved using hydro. Effectively there is as much electricity being exported as being imported through this particular cable.

But there is a limit to the capacity in Norway and the cable. Hydrogen plants are being build and planned in several locations to store electricity from wind turbines.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 09:35:07 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online tom66

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #241 on: November 25, 2021, 11:33:13 pm »
I agree. In the NL electricity prices are pretty constant and the difference between day & night tariff is neglectible. AFAIK the reason is a cable between the Netherlands and Norway where the excess energy is stored & retrieved using hydro. Effectively there is as much electricity being exported as being imported through this particular cable.

But there is a limit to the capacity in Norway and the cable. Hydrogen plants are being build and planned in several locations to store electricity from wind turbines.

Completely failing to see the point  |O  With a grid that's dependent on renewables (which is where most European countries are heading because fusion power doesn't exist yet, nuclear is too expensive and fossil fuels cause climate warming)  you're going to have times when there is excess supply.

It'll almost always be cheaper to sell that within the country - though, of course, the export market will be booming too.  But, it'll create huge incentives to shift your usage to when energy is in good supply but in demand is low.  Storing it will also be expensive - hydrogen is a very lossy storage method.  I don't doubt some will be stored, but I think a great deal will be used, too.

EVs will absolutely take advantage of this, being parked up 95-98% of the time.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #242 on: November 26, 2021, 12:12:22 am »
Quote
Completely failing to see the point

Actually, I think you are assuming altruism where there will actually be capitalistic greediness.

We've been promised effectively free power for decades. If ever fusion does work, it's not going to be anywhere near free (probably more expensive than now), but there are always optimists telling us different. Renewables are the same, just quicker to spoil our dreams.

Just like when we buy, let's say, a microscope we don't pay just for the materials. There's the machines that build them to pay for, the people that put them together and setup them need paying, the infrastructure to take your money and deliver the goods, and a healthy profit on top. Electricity could be actually free but we would still have to pay to use it.

Edit: it's not unknown for manufacturers to trash products rather than let them be sold off for nothing or very little. Why should the power companies be any different?

« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 12:14:36 am by dunkemhigh »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #243 on: November 26, 2021, 12:34:28 am »
I agree. In the NL electricity prices are pretty constant and the difference between day & night tariff is neglectible. AFAIK the reason is a cable between the Netherlands and Norway where the excess energy is stored & retrieved using hydro. Effectively there is as much electricity being exported as being imported through this particular cable.

But there is a limit to the capacity in Norway and the cable. Hydrogen plants are being build and planned in several locations to store electricity from wind turbines.

Completely failing to see the point  |O  With a grid that's dependent on renewables (which is where most European countries are heading because fusion power doesn't exist yet, nuclear is too expensive and fossil fuels cause climate warming)  you're going to have times when there is excess supply.

It'll almost always be cheaper to sell that within the country - though, of course, the export market will be booming too.  But, it'll create huge incentives to shift your usage to when energy is in good supply but in demand is low.
If that where true, it would have already happened. The reality is that nuclear, gas and coal power stations need to have a base load in order to keep running. Getting rid of that base load is so problematic that in the UK the electricity is given away almost for free (I've seen tariffs mentiond around 4 pence) and it makes it commercially viable to install long wires to other countries where they have hydro storage facilities. IOW: what you are proposing is a problem which already exists for a long time. Renewable energy is only going to shift the source away from coal and gas but  does not solve the actual problem. In the end you'll need storage because that is more cost effective than giving electricity away for free (or even pay to get rid of it).

And no, nuclear isn't too expensive; coal and gas are too cheap. This decade we'll see a large boom of new nuclear power plants being build all over Europe combined with hydrogen storage to give these power stations a base load.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #244 on: November 26, 2021, 12:43:05 am »
Quote
The reality is that nuclear, gas and coal power stations need to have a base load in order to keep running.

Renewables don't. Got too much power? Trim the turbines, disconnect the panels.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #245 on: November 26, 2021, 01:00:01 am »
Quote
The reality is that nuclear, gas and coal power stations need to have a base load in order to keep running.

Renewables don't. Got too much power? Trim the turbines, disconnect the panels.
It doesn't work that way. Currently many of those installations have garantees that whatever they produce is to be absorbed by the grid. Another problem with turning wind turbines and solar panels off is that the electricity they produce is going to be more expensive because the ROI per time period has to remain the same in order to make the interest payments.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 01:01:32 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tom66

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #246 on: November 26, 2021, 10:48:52 am »
It doesn't work that way. Currently many of those installations have garantees that whatever they produce is to be absorbed by the grid. Another problem with turning wind turbines and solar panels off is that the electricity they produce is going to be more expensive because the ROI per time period has to remain the same in order to make the interest payments.

They're only paid these guarantees because we need a base load now.  They'll be obsolete, much like coal power plants have gone obsolete in many parts of the world.

We don't actually need a base load when we have sufficient renewable energy + storage to guarantee that there will not be a shortage in X years.  The model for the UK was something like 3.5x nominal average load with 3 hours of storage guarantees no shortage (at current usage rates) for 50 years.  In times of surplus, the electricity will be dirt cheap.  There is a risk of Texas-style shortages with a pure renewable grid, but those are worsened by having fossil-fuel plants that can't black start.  Renewable grids can self-start, whereas fossil fuel plants require well maintained diesel generators.

Wind power is profitable around £25/MWhr, right now;  that equates to about 2.5p/kWh + distribution costs, or probably a consumer cost of around 6-7p/kWh (~8 EUR-cents). 
 

Online nctnico

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #247 on: November 26, 2021, 04:25:50 pm »
It doesn't work that way. Currently many of those installations have garantees that whatever they produce is to be absorbed by the grid. Another problem with turning wind turbines and solar panels off is that the electricity they produce is going to be more expensive because the ROI per time period has to remain the same in order to make the interest payments.

They're only paid these guarantees because we need a base load now.
No. It is because otherwise wind and solar are not profitable so governments are giving the companies that invest into wind and solar guarantees that whatever they produce will be bought AND for a minimum price. Electricity prices may even go negative but the tax payer is paying nevertheless in order to make sure the solar and wind companies are getting the minimum price per kWh.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 04:37:30 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Miyuki

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #248 on: November 26, 2021, 04:47:54 pm »
It doesn't work that way. Currently many of those installations have garantees that whatever they produce is to be absorbed by the grid. Another problem with turning wind turbines and solar panels off is that the electricity they produce is going to be more expensive because the ROI per time period has to remain the same in order to make the interest payments.

They're only paid these guarantees because we need a base load now.
No. It is because otherwise wind and solar are not profitable so governments are giving the companies that invest into wind and solar guarantees that whatever they produce will be bought AND for a minimum price. Electricity prices may even go negative but the tax payer is paying nevertheless in order to make sure the solar and wind companies are getting the minimum price per kWh.
The truth is European "market" is weird as they try to push renewables by force and pay guaranteed fixed prices, sometimes really high compared to the end-user price just to promote more installations even in places without good conditions
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #249 on: November 26, 2021, 05:01:06 pm »
Yes and it's not "weird". It's just plain political stupidity at its best.
I don't think this is restricted to the EU either. The frantic push for "renewable energy" (whatever it is and however renewable it really is) makes many countries all over the world make extremely stupid and damaging decisions.
 


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