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“Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
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not1xor1:
here is another article against hydrogen:
Hydrogen for ground transportation and heating is a bad idea
rstofer:

--- Quote from: richard.cs on November 21, 2021, 09:21:59 pm ---
--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 21, 2021, 09:10:36 pm ---
--- Quote --- You just said workplace charging won't happen
--- End quote ---
Quote the exact part of the post where I said that, please.

--- End quote ---
My apologies, what you actually said was:

--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 21, 2021, 04:59:56 pm ---If the car is at <your workplace> the chances are it's not getting a discount on juice...

--- End quote ---
My point remains, you brought up daytime, and Miyuki responded to that.

--- End quote ---
It is already happening for many government service organizations and, were I still working, we would have been a leader in the installation of a bunch of charging stations.  It would have cost a LOT of money but the company would have done it anyway.

As I said earlier in this thread, we wouldn't have wanted people taking time off of task in order to swap parking places so we would have more than enough stations for everybody.

Some companies are like that!
tom66:
Everyone seems to be assuming that we retain the status quo ie generation capacity =~ supply.

The more likely outcome is generation capacity >> supply, especially if renewables are used.  This is because renewables can have poor yield, so if you want a nearly pure renewable grid you will need many times more capacity.  For the UK, think something like 150GW wind and 20-30GW solar.  (Current capacity is about 25GW wind and 14GW solar - though much of the solar capacity is domestic/workplace installs which aren't strictly suppliers.)   

The *side effect* is at many times during the day there will be gigawatts of extra capacity available that is otherwise going to be thrown away, so the cost per kWh will plummet.  This will create many times in the day when it is very cheap in the day to use energy and times in the day when it is much more expensive as supply is constrained and we begin to use storage (batteries, hydrogen, pumped) or go to backup fossil fuels (probably with carbon capture)

This is what the National Grid and other country's network distributors are planning on, it is not a matter of if but when we have this.  At the current rate wind power is being installed we are adding ca 3-5GW per year and the rate has historically been exponential, so this is likely to be the situation in a decade or two.

Hence the push for smart metering because without smart meters you cannot dynamically price energy, and there is no way to shift load around, the Grid would love to be able to tell your dishwasher to run at the best time, and your car charger.  There is a Dutch company that will pay you a small amount every month if you let them control when your car charges, as they can use this to reduce demand charges that the grid would otherwise face.
ogden:

--- Quote from: tom66 on November 25, 2021, 07:40:50 pm ---The *side effect* is at many times during the day there will be gigawatts of extra capacity available that is otherwise going to be thrown away, so the cost per kWh will plummet.  This will create many times in the day when it is very cheap in the day to use energy and times in the day when it is much more expensive as supply is constrained and we begin to use storage (batteries, hydrogen, pumped) or go to backup fossil fuels (probably with carbon capture)

--- End quote ---

Good point. Wind/solar excess capacity could be used to "store" energy into hydrogen. However I still believe that hydrogen will be long haul transporation "fuel" while (ever improving) "Battery EV" will dominate consumer market.
PlainName:

--- Quote ---The *side effect* is at many times during the day there will be gigawatts of extra capacity available that is otherwise going to be thrown away, so the cost per kWh will plummet.
--- End quote ---

Not necessarily. Someone has to pay for that excess capacity, so prices may stay the same for bright days but go UP for 'normal' days.

You might get cheap days now because they don't know what to do with the excess. But that's likely because it's not very common. Once it is common, the suppliers may well invest in storage so they can store the excess and play back when it's needed (think gigabatteries, pumped storage, etc). Of course, someone has to pay for that storage so, again, prices may well go up.
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