General > General Technical Chat
“Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
nctnico:
--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 25, 2021, 09:23:45 pm ---
--- Quote ---The *side effect* is at many times during the day there will be gigawatts of extra capacity available that is otherwise going to be thrown away, so the cost per kWh will plummet.
--- End quote ---
Not necessarily. Someone has to pay for that excess capacity, so prices may stay the same for bright days but go UP for 'normal' days.
You might get cheap days now because they don't know what to do with the excess. But that's likely because it's not very common. Once it is common, the suppliers may well invest in storage so they can store the excess and play back when it's needed (think gigabatteries, pumped storage, etc). Of course, someone has to pay for that storage so, again, prices may well go up.
--- End quote ---
I agree. In the NL electricity prices are pretty constant and the difference between day & night tariff is neglectible. AFAIK the reason is a cable between the Netherlands and Norway where the excess energy is stored & retrieved using hydro. Effectively there is as much electricity being exported as being imported through this particular cable.
But there is a limit to the capacity in Norway and the cable. Hydrogen plants are being build and planned in several locations to store electricity from wind turbines.
tom66:
--- Quote from: nctnico on November 25, 2021, 09:28:33 pm ---I agree. In the NL electricity prices are pretty constant and the difference between day & night tariff is neglectible. AFAIK the reason is a cable between the Netherlands and Norway where the excess energy is stored & retrieved using hydro. Effectively there is as much electricity being exported as being imported through this particular cable.
But there is a limit to the capacity in Norway and the cable. Hydrogen plants are being build and planned in several locations to store electricity from wind turbines.
--- End quote ---
Completely failing to see the point |O With a grid that's dependent on renewables (which is where most European countries are heading because fusion power doesn't exist yet, nuclear is too expensive and fossil fuels cause climate warming) you're going to have times when there is excess supply.
It'll almost always be cheaper to sell that within the country - though, of course, the export market will be booming too. But, it'll create huge incentives to shift your usage to when energy is in good supply but in demand is low. Storing it will also be expensive - hydrogen is a very lossy storage method. I don't doubt some will be stored, but I think a great deal will be used, too.
EVs will absolutely take advantage of this, being parked up 95-98% of the time.
PlainName:
--- Quote ---Completely failing to see the point
--- End quote ---
Actually, I think you are assuming altruism where there will actually be capitalistic greediness.
We've been promised effectively free power for decades. If ever fusion does work, it's not going to be anywhere near free (probably more expensive than now), but there are always optimists telling us different. Renewables are the same, just quicker to spoil our dreams.
Just like when we buy, let's say, a microscope we don't pay just for the materials. There's the machines that build them to pay for, the people that put them together and setup them need paying, the infrastructure to take your money and deliver the goods, and a healthy profit on top. Electricity could be actually free but we would still have to pay to use it.
Edit: it's not unknown for manufacturers to trash products rather than let them be sold off for nothing or very little. Why should the power companies be any different?
nctnico:
--- Quote from: tom66 on November 25, 2021, 11:33:13 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on November 25, 2021, 09:28:33 pm ---I agree. In the NL electricity prices are pretty constant and the difference between day & night tariff is neglectible. AFAIK the reason is a cable between the Netherlands and Norway where the excess energy is stored & retrieved using hydro. Effectively there is as much electricity being exported as being imported through this particular cable.
But there is a limit to the capacity in Norway and the cable. Hydrogen plants are being build and planned in several locations to store electricity from wind turbines.
--- End quote ---
Completely failing to see the point |O With a grid that's dependent on renewables (which is where most European countries are heading because fusion power doesn't exist yet, nuclear is too expensive and fossil fuels cause climate warming) you're going to have times when there is excess supply.
It'll almost always be cheaper to sell that within the country - though, of course, the export market will be booming too. But, it'll create huge incentives to shift your usage to when energy is in good supply but in demand is low.
--- End quote ---
If that where true, it would have already happened. The reality is that nuclear, gas and coal power stations need to have a base load in order to keep running. Getting rid of that base load is so problematic that in the UK the electricity is given away almost for free (I've seen tariffs mentiond around 4 pence) and it makes it commercially viable to install long wires to other countries where they have hydro storage facilities. IOW: what you are proposing is a problem which already exists for a long time. Renewable energy is only going to shift the source away from coal and gas but does not solve the actual problem. In the end you'll need storage because that is more cost effective than giving electricity away for free (or even pay to get rid of it).
And no, nuclear isn't too expensive; coal and gas are too cheap. This decade we'll see a large boom of new nuclear power plants being build all over Europe combined with hydrogen storage to give these power stations a base load.
PlainName:
--- Quote ---The reality is that nuclear, gas and coal power stations need to have a base load in order to keep running.
--- End quote ---
Renewables don't. Got too much power? Trim the turbines, disconnect the panels.
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