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“Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
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PlainName:
I am ambivalent about EV - one would be cool for some parts of my life and a drag for others. But...


--- Quote ---Both rent them as needed now and again.
--- End quote ---

I don't know anyone that rents a car except on holidays in foreign parts. Easily match by those that take the car with them.


--- Quote --- PAYPAL HQ has 50 in its parking lot near me.
--- End quote ---

How many cars in total park there? 50 is OK when EV is still a bit niche, but when everyone wants to be charging up at work 50 would be replicating the sugar scrums currently seen in Russia.
2N3055:

--- Quote from: MadScientist on March 26, 2022, 08:09:38 pm ---This argument sounds a lot like the proponents of Betamax arguing it’s merits long after the industry had basically abandoned the format.

Car companies are going BEV. End of discussion

Those arguing about EV issues have clearly never owned one. I have both a diesel van and an electric car. My EV has 275,000km on it and my van has 290,000km. In all the time Ive never either run out of diesel nor electricity and that’s the experience of vast majority of people

As for comments about not having a driveway , most people in dense housing situations , which proper town planning , don’t need cars , both my adult kids living in major European capitals don’t have cars , nor do their peer group. Both rent them as needed now and again.

The average car commute is 14 km per day. With current EV ranges approaching 500 km , that charging about once a fortnight , easily done at a local fast charging station. No need for a driveway and not to mention many workplaces have fitted charging points , PAYPAL HQ has 50 in its parking lot near me.

Electric motors   are fast , powerful , way better then the 19th century bag of bolts. Once you drive all electric you rarely go back.

Embrace it , it’s going to be all encompassing

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Yeah, no..

First EU recognizes that there is no infrastructure to charge all vehicles even if you magically convert them to BEV. Large projects to do so are underway but will not be enough. Therefore there is strategic plan to run at least 30-40% of vehicles on fuel cells/hydrogen. Fuel cell/hydrogen is their strategic choice for range extension. There are EU commission decisions on this. Hydrogen is coming. You can buy fuel cell Toyota today.

If you live in city there is no charging on the street. And that is not gonna change soon.
Your solution to that is that I don't deserve to own a car?
Where I live rentals are prohibitively expensive, 4-5 days of rent equals a monthly payment to own one. So people just buy cars and don't drive them much..
Not everybody work where they live, and most cities in the world have bad public transport anywhere outside inner city limits. Or you have lines that go in such a way that you need to travel 10 km one way and then 10 km back to get to place that is 3km from you if cut across the town directly..
Most industrial parks are on city periphery and by Murphy always there where there is no direct line..

In order for these things to work cities should be much better planned than they are. Now they kind of, sort of, work for many, but not for everybody..
EV's are better tech. They are. Love them. And I can't have them.
If parking in front of my building had chargers I would get EV today. But in front of my building I'm lucky to find a parking space in a first place..

Not to mention that I can buy a decent fully working used gasoline car for 2000€.
Brave new world practically mean that many poor people won't be having a car anymore...

tom66:

--- Quote ---First EU recognizes that there is no infrastructure to charge all vehicles even if you magically convert them to BEV. Large projects to do so are underway but will not be enough. Therefore there is strategic plan to run at least 30-40% of vehicles on fuel cells/hydrogen. Fuel cell/hydrogen is their strategic choice for range extension. There are EU commission decisions on this. Hydrogen is coming. You can buy fuel cell Toyota today.

--- End quote ---

Hydrogen for cars just seems like a boondoggle.

No one besides Toyota and a few startups is really looking at it.  (Hyundai has a FCEV too, however they've discontinued development of the next-generation model, so make of that what you like.)

Arguably the hydrogen car doesn't really solve the infrastructure problems that EVs have.  EVs have a lower infrastructure requirement simply because ~50% can be charged overnight on a driveway.  And probably another 10-20% of those could be charged at work instead of in public.  So the problem really comes to providing charging to those who park on the street every night.

Don't disagree that this is a difficult problem to solve but many streets in the UK already have lamp post/EV parking bays... whilst there are a grand total of 10 hydrogen refuelling stations in the UK (of which 2 have been broken for over two years.)

I do think that hydrogen will have a good place in powering heavy goods vehicles, buses, trains (when direct electrification is impractical) and in the future it might even work for aircraft.

Edit - fix typo
SiliconWizard:

--- Quote from: 2N3055 on March 26, 2022, 09:15:04 pm ---First EU recognizes that there is no infrastructure to charge all vehicles even if you magically convert them to BEV. Large projects to do so are underway but will not be enough. Therefore there is strategic plan to run at least 30-40% of vehicles on fuel cells/hydrogen. Fuel cell/hydrogen is their strategic choice for range extension. There are EU commission decisions on this. Hydrogen is coming. You can buy fuel cell Toyota today.

--- End quote ---

I've said that a few times already, but I guess most people do not want to hear it. For sure there is no infrastructure for that, and we don't produce enough electricity anyway. There is no workable plan to convert all currently circulating vehicles to electricity. The only way of doing it is to drastically decrease the number of circulating vehicles.

But I can understand that many would rather believe it will work out, so that they won't lose anything in the process. But uh... :popcorn:
tom66:

--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 26, 2022, 10:03:17 pm ---I've said that a few times already, but I guess most people do not want to hear it. For sure there is no infrastructure for that, and we don't produce enough electricity anyway. There is no workable plan to convert all currently circulating vehicles to electricity. The only way of doing it is to drastically decrease the number of circulating vehicles.

--- End quote ---

Because it's wrong.

You could convert every petrol/diesel car to EV overnight in the UK and see an uptick of 20% in total demand.   Now if you actually did that you might have brownouts and shortages but it's not happening overnight,  good cars last 15+ years and current car sales for EVs will not replace that for some time. 

So you will realistically need to increase capacity by 2-3% per year to accommodate EVs assuming total fleet replacement by say 2050.

New wind power plants are going online at about 4-5GW per year at the moment for the UK - that's about 10% of the capacity per year being added.  More than enough!

Trucks, buses, trains?  More questionable they will be converted to EV by say 2030-2035, but they are also easier to charge with typically defined depot locations and routes.  Haven't the time to work out if these change the equations materially, but I doubt it.  It seems most proposals focus on cars, they are easier.  Trucks/buses may need hydrogen.
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