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“Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
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MadScientist:

--- Quote from: tom66 on March 27, 2022, 05:58:40 pm ---A 7.2kW home charger (230V, 32A - standard 'level 2' charger)  is enough to charge at around 30 miles of range per hour.  So parked from 6pm to 6am, 12 hours, it adds 360 miles of range, if you use every minute of that to charge and have a battery big enough to store that all...

In what world are you doing 360 miles - or 131000 miles - per year?  There's absolutely no need for a home charger to top up more than your commute plus a bit extra. I do about 50 miles per day when commuting and a 2.3kW (230V, 10A) granny charger would be enough in a 6 hour period.  I only have a PHEV, soo about half of that is electric and the other half is petrol, so my car is done in 3 hours.  Fits nicely in the off peak period so I haven't bothered increasing the charging power.

If anything one of the huge benefits to owning an EV is it frees you from the need to charge up in public, it charges just like your phone does... overnight, while you sleep, you need to do nothing but plug it in.

--- End quote ---

Again you can charge at centralised high power charging stations , while home charging is “ nice to have “ , a driveway or home charging is not required to own an EV.
nctnico:

--- Quote from: tom66 on March 27, 2022, 05:19:36 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on March 27, 2022, 03:37:40 pm ---Can you please get me a driveway? And while you are at it, thousands of people that live in my neighbourhood would like one as well. And make it two driveways for the households with two cars.

--- End quote ---

Well, I addressed that yes there is an infrastructure issue for street parked EVs right now - so yes, probably not the best time to buy an EV if you don't have off-street parking of some kind.  But, about 50% of people -do-, so they should have much less of an issue.  Besides, charging at 2am would still be perfectly possible for on-street parking: delayed start is a thing. 

And, why would you need two driveways for two cars?  They don't need to be charged at the same time.  You don't need to fill your petrol cars at the same time.

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Who says I don't need to charge both cars? First you say delayed charging is a thing but how to charge two cars when only one can be parked on a driveway? I surely don't want to get out of bed in the middle of the night to swap the cars. I'm also not very fond of needing to have to plug a car in all the time (which actually is a nuisance to many BEV owners after a while).

No, the whole 'charging in front of your doorstep' is just a temporary crutch. Just like people had gas cans at home to fuel the early ICE cars. Think about how low the utilisation is of the chargers to do actual charging. It means a lot of hardware is sitting idle for most of the time but that hardware still needs to be paid for in full. My estimation is that a street level charging point costs between 5k and 10k euro over the time span of 10 years (installation, maintenance, power delivery, administration, etc costs) while it serves only 2 or 3 cars. Those costs need to be recouped from the people that charge these cars. An 'at home' charging point is cheaper but including installation it can easely hit the 1k euro mark. Not to mention the grid upgrades needed to feed enough power into residential areas; these will need to be paid for and overnight charging won't work if everyone is doing that due to limited capacity. Charging an EV is not the kind of load you want to have on a large scale in residential areas.

If you look at the bigger picture you'll see the current crop of the BEVs and 'at home' charging will be obsolete in 10 to 20 years. Better (solid state) batteries will allow fast charging (like 700km of range in 3 minutes) at what we call 'gas stations' nowadays and those either have storage in the form of batteries / hydrogen OR a fat connection to the grid. I would not be surprised if the BEVs you can buy 20 years from now are not even capable of 'at home' charging because it is cheaper to interface to fast DC charging only. And with widespread use of hydrogen looming at the horizon it makes sense to run cars from hydrogen instead of converting it into electricity at a gas station or at a storage facility. But before that the price of the technology will need to drop significantly. I'm sure it will at some point just like internet access and mobile phones but it takes a long time. Until then the early adopters are footing the bill. Countries that are currently lagging behind will likely to become ahead by skipping the 'at home charging' stage entirely.
tom66:
I don't disagree that charging speeds will get faster;  CCS v4 is due out soon at 500kW.  But, charging at home is an advantage.  Why would I want to go out and charge my car?  It's time out of my day I need to take.  Of course, it doesn't work for every application, sometimes you need 50kWh in 30 minutes.  But often you don't - so I think the majority of EV charging will continue to be 'slow'.

One thing I could see is onboard AC charging being deleted and it being included in the wall charging units.  It's a compromise to carry it in the car, but there are benefits in having the cooling system already there for the motor.   It would probably depend on the cost of one of those units.  A home DC charging unit from Bosch for instance is still 10k euros, so I think the onboard charger will still win (even if you are paying for it in the sticker price for the car, you may want to charge at multiple AC-only locations.) 

Even if a public charger costs 10kEUR to install (let's go with your estimate).  Let us say it serves those 3 cars at 9000 miles per annum.  So over 10 years it 'provided' 270,000 miles of electricity.  Or about 67MWh of electricity.  That's a 13 euro cent per kWh markup over 10 years.  Hardly devastating. 

On-street charging will be a public resource and like petrol stations, once there's enough demand it will just be installed, either by municipalities or by private companies.  Look at e.g. Ubitricity in London, it's a private company doing exactly this (230V 20A on street charging).


Someone:

--- Quote from: nctnico on March 27, 2022, 03:37:40 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on March 27, 2022, 09:27:53 am ---Not to mention, EVs don't need to charge at 6pm, like when you might put the oven on, which creates a lot of demand. EVs can charge at 2am, parked on your driveway,

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Can you please get me a driveway? And while you are at it, thousands of people that live in my neighbourhood would like one as well. And make it two driveways for the households with two cars.

--- End quote ---
Can I please park a caravan in your on street parking and live there? (or rent it out to some 3rd party)

You want something, then pay for it.
james_s:

--- Quote from: MadScientist on March 27, 2022, 06:49:52 pm ---Again you can charge at centralised high power charging stations , while home charging is “ nice to have “ , a driveway or home charging is not required to own an EV.

--- End quote ---

Home charging is the single biggest advantage of having an EV. IMO there is very little point in owning one if this is not an option for you, just get a regular gas/diesel car or hybrid. Yes it's possible to get by without it, my dad did, but if you can't charge at home you are missing out on the best feature they offer, the fact that you start out each day with a full charge and never have to stop anywhere to fill up. I know quite a few people with EVs now and every single one of them charges it primarily at home.
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