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| “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV” |
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| Marco:
--- Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2022, 01:40:51 am ---efficient. The only way hydrogen even begins to make sense is if you have a massive surplus of cheap electricity. --- End quote --- Efficiency and cheap are relative to alternatives, in this case fossil fuel, take away the alternatives and suddenly things change. All the other alternatives to fossil fuel are shitshows too. With peak fertilizer already hitting I don't think biofuel will do much better. |
| SiliconWizard:
--- Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2022, 01:40:51 am --- --- Quote from: Marco on April 03, 2022, 01:12:10 am ---Given the choice ... but lets say we arrive at a point where there's a trillion dollar liquid hydrogen market and some regulators interested in drumming up extra business for it, there's always a chance the choice will be taken away. Or maybe courts in some countries hold governments to environmental promises come hell or high water ... like is happening in my country with NOx emissions (the NOx emission limits are economically crippling, but the courts are holding the government to their promises). Necessity is the mother of invention. --- End quote --- But there never will be. Hydrogen isn't a fuel, you can't mine it, you have to produce it either by cracking hydrocarbons or electrolysis of water and neither process is efficient. The only way hydrogen even begins to make sense is if you have a massive surplus of cheap electricity. --- End quote --- Yes. It would just be a convenient (yet not efficient) way of storing energy for later use. You can add "clean" to "surplus" and "cheap"... because for the time being at least, most of the electricity produced worldwide comes from... fossil fuels. And I'm not sure the combined efficiencies of the whole chain from producing hydrogen to the fuel cells to the electric engines would be in favor of this. I have significant doubts. Short of some spectacular breakthrough I'm not aware of, it's only going to thappen from nuclear fusion, and we are still pretty far away from that goal. We're not going to get there by planting more wind turbines and solar panels. :popcorn: |
| Someone:
--- Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2022, 01:40:51 am ---The only way hydrogen even begins to make sense is if you have a massive surplus of cheap electricity. --- End quote --- Lets see, places with surplus excess electricity, based on consistent negative market prices: US: 4% of the time "Plentiful electricity turns wholesale prices negative": https://doi.org/10.1016/j.adapen.2021.100073 Australia: 4-5% of all trading intervals: https://www.energycouncil.com.au/analysis/increases-in-negative-prices-is-it-a-positive/ Europe: --- Quote from: https://extranet.acer.europa.eu/en/Electricity/Market%20monitoring/Documents_Public/Key%20developments%20-%20MMR%202021_Final.pdf ---With increasing amounts of intermittent RES, the number of negative prices is expected to increase. Well managed, this may bring opportunities such as incentivising demand- response and efficient energy storage --- End quote --- I'd say negative prices are "cheap". Good, hydrogen (and other energy "inefficient" storage) can make sense economically and environmentally. --- Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 03, 2022, 02:01:02 am ---We're not going to get there by planting more wind turbines and solar panels. --- End quote --- Thats pretty much exactly how we get "there" (having cheap power and vibrant/diverse energy storage). |
| rstofer:
--- Quote from: emece67 on March 30, 2022, 10:37:00 pm --- --- Quote from: rstofer on March 30, 2022, 08:27:52 pm ---I view the fuel cell as the same as LPG (propane): Fine for fleet use from a central service yard, not very practical elsewhere. City buses, maybe taxis (if Uber doesn't wipe them out), other governmental vehicles - these will all work fine on a fuel cell. I don't see the day when there will be fuel cell charging stations on street corners. --- End quote --- Here LPG is easily located in gas stations. I mean, approximately 1 on each 8 gas stations sells LPG. In my case, 3 of the 5 stations nearest to me house do have it. And some car makers do sell models that came, directly from the factory, running on LPG. An interesting option because of price/km and also because LPG cars have (here) less restrictions to enter city centers because of their lower NO emissions. --- End quote --- I have never seen a filling station that deals with LPG. Maybe in Los Angeles or one of the other big cities but not anywhere near here in the California Central Valley. There may be a few but they are far from common. Around here, the only privileged cars are battery only EVs. Lawmakers finally figured out that hybrid EVs are nonsense and they no longer have access to HOV lanes without multiple occupants. OTOH, my Chevy Bolt has to have placards on all 4 corners (or some such nonsense) to tell the Highway Patrol that I can use the HOV lanes. There's no way in the world I am going to deface my car with those placards. The good news is that I am retired and have no interest in the HOV lanes. I don't commute anywhere. |
| james_s:
--- Quote from: rstofer on April 03, 2022, 04:21:38 am ---OTOH, my Chevy Bolt has to have placards on all 4 corners (or some such nonsense) to tell the Highway Patrol that I can use the HOV lanes. There's no way in the world I am going to deface my car with those placards. --- End quote --- That's totally stupid. All they'd have to do is issue special license plates for eligible cars. Why on earth would they come up with a separate placard, much less multiple copies? |
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