Author Topic: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”  (Read 43890 times)

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Offline Marco

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #325 on: April 03, 2022, 02:00:23 am »
efficient. The only way hydrogen even begins to make sense is if you have a massive surplus of cheap electricity.

Efficiency and cheap are relative to alternatives, in this case fossil fuel, take away the alternatives and suddenly things change.

All the other alternatives to fossil fuel are shitshows too. With peak fertilizer already hitting I don't think biofuel will do much better.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2022, 02:03:37 am by Marco »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #326 on: April 03, 2022, 02:01:02 am »
Given the choice ... but lets say we arrive at a point where there's a trillion dollar liquid hydrogen market and some regulators interested in drumming up extra business for it, there's always a chance the choice will be taken away. Or maybe courts in some countries hold governments to environmental promises come hell or high water ... like is happening in my country with NOx emissions (the NOx emission limits are economically crippling, but the courts are holding the government to their promises).

Necessity is the mother of invention.

But there never will be. Hydrogen isn't a fuel, you can't mine it, you have to produce it either by cracking hydrocarbons or electrolysis of water and neither process is efficient. The only way hydrogen even begins to make sense is if you have a massive surplus of cheap electricity.

Yes. It would just be a convenient (yet not efficient) way of storing energy for later use.
You can add "clean" to "surplus" and "cheap"... because for the time being at least, most of the electricity produced worldwide comes from... fossil fuels. And I'm not sure the combined efficiencies of the whole chain from producing hydrogen to the fuel cells to the electric engines would be in favor of this. I have significant doubts.
Short of some spectacular breakthrough I'm not aware of, it's only going to thappen from nuclear fusion, and we are still pretty far away from that goal.
We're not going to get there by planting more wind turbines and solar panels. :popcorn:
 

Offline Someone

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #327 on: April 03, 2022, 02:24:17 am »
The only way hydrogen even begins to make sense is if you have a massive surplus of cheap electricity.
Lets see, places with surplus excess electricity, based on consistent negative market prices:
US: 4% of the time "Plentiful electricity turns wholesale prices negative": https://doi.org/10.1016/j.adapen.2021.100073
Australia: 4-5% of all trading intervals: https://www.energycouncil.com.au/analysis/increases-in-negative-prices-is-it-a-positive/
Europe:
With increasing amounts of intermittent RES, the number of negative prices is expected to increase. Well managed, this may bring opportunities such as incentivising demand- response and efficient energy storage
I'd say negative prices are "cheap".

Good, hydrogen (and other energy "inefficient" storage) can make sense economically and environmentally.

We're not going to get there by planting more wind turbines and solar panels.
Thats pretty much exactly how we get "there" (having cheap power and vibrant/diverse energy storage).
 

Online rstofer

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #328 on: April 03, 2022, 04:21:38 am »
I view the fuel cell as the same as LPG (propane):  Fine for fleet use from a central service yard, not very practical elsewhere.  City buses, maybe taxis (if Uber doesn't wipe them out), other governmental vehicles - these will all work fine on a fuel cell.  I don't see the day when there will be fuel cell charging stations on street corners.

Here LPG is easily located in gas stations. I mean, approximately 1 on each 8 gas stations sells LPG. In my case, 3 of the 5 stations nearest to me house do have it. And some car makers do sell models that came, directly from the factory, running on LPG. An interesting option because of price/km and also because LPG cars have (here) less restrictions to enter city centers because of their lower NO emissions.

I have never seen a filling station that deals with LPG.  Maybe in Los Angeles or one of the other big cities but not anywhere near here in the California Central Valley.  There may be a few but they are far from common.

Around here, the only privileged cars are battery only EVs.  Lawmakers finally figured out that hybrid EVs are nonsense and they no longer have access to HOV lanes without multiple occupants.

OTOH, my Chevy Bolt has to have placards on all 4 corners (or some such nonsense) to tell the Highway Patrol that I can use the HOV lanes.  There's no way in the world I am going to deface my car with those placards.

The good news is that I am retired and have no interest in the HOV lanes.  I don't commute anywhere.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #329 on: April 03, 2022, 04:35:18 am »
OTOH, my Chevy Bolt has to have placards on all 4 corners (or some such nonsense) to tell the Highway Patrol that I can use the HOV lanes.  There's no way in the world I am going to deface my car with those placards.

That's totally stupid. All they'd have to do is issue special license plates for eligible cars. Why on earth would they come up with a separate placard, much less multiple copies?
 

Online tom66

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #330 on: April 03, 2022, 11:38:20 am »
The solution in the UK is simple: green stripe on licence plate.

 

Offline Miyuki

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #331 on: April 03, 2022, 02:06:43 pm »
Here LPG is easily located in gas stations. I mean, approximately 1 on each 8 gas stations sells LPG. In my case, 3 of the 5 stations nearest to me house do have it. And some car makers do sell models that came, directly from the factory, running on LPG. An interesting option because of price/km and also because LPG cars have (here) less restrictions to enter city centers because of their lower NO emissions.
I have never seen a filling station that deals with LPG.  Maybe in Los Angeles or one of the other big cities but not anywhere near here in the California Central Valley.  There may be a few but they are far from common.
...
It is an EU tax thing as here is ~100% tax on gasoline and little on LPG so it costs roughly half the price
But now are pushed more towards CNG, and LPG is considered dirty  ::) but it might change quickly as we know what is happening now

And that CNG is stored also at about 200 bars and you an easy get home trickle filling station. It was in the past mentioned as one of the benefits.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #332 on: April 03, 2022, 02:10:55 pm »
The normal taxicabs in Tokyo have used LPG for a long time to reduce air pollution and to take up too much space in the trunk to handle American luggage.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #333 on: April 03, 2022, 06:11:16 pm »
We're not going to get there by planting more wind turbines and solar panels.
Thats pretty much exactly how we get "there" (having cheap power and vibrant/diverse energy storage).

Yes, exactly. :-DD
 

Offline Someone

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #334 on: April 03, 2022, 10:24:02 pm »
We're not going to get there by planting more wind turbines and solar panels.
Thats pretty much exactly how we get "there" (having cheap power and vibrant/diverse energy storage).
Yes, exactly.
So you agree now? Solar/wind is a way to produce cheap energy that supports energy storage such as hydrogen? I'm not seeing any alternatives that are cheaper, neither are electricity markets:
https://www.csiro.au/en/news/news-releases/2020/renewables-still-the-cheapest-new-build-power-in-australia
Which explicitly considers electrolytic production of Hydrogen becoming a viable economic proposal.

Complete agreement? Or would you like to clairfy where "there" is:
Given the choice ... but lets say we arrive at a point where there's a trillion dollar liquid hydrogen market and some regulators interested in drumming up extra business for it, there's always a chance the choice will be taken away. Or maybe courts in some countries hold governments to environmental promises come hell or high water ... like is happening in my country with NOx emissions (the NOx emission limits are economically crippling, but the courts are holding the government to their promises).

Necessity is the mother of invention.
But there never will be. Hydrogen isn't a fuel, you can't mine it, you have to produce it either by cracking hydrocarbons or electrolysis of water and neither process is efficient. The only way hydrogen even begins to make sense is if you have a massive surplus of cheap electricity.
Yes. It would just be a convenient (yet not efficient) way of storing energy for later use.
You can add "clean" to "surplus" and "cheap"... because for the time being at least, most of the electricity produced worldwide comes from... fossil fuels. And I'm not sure the combined efficiencies of the whole chain from producing hydrogen to the fuel cells to the electric engines would be in favor of this. I have significant doubts.
Short of some spectacular breakthrough I'm not aware of, it's only going to thappen from nuclear fusion, and we are still pretty far away from that goal.
We're not going to get there by planting more wind turbines and solar panels.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
« Reply #335 on: April 03, 2022, 11:51:07 pm »
Given the choice ... but lets say we arrive at a point where there's a trillion dollar liquid hydrogen market and some regulators interested in drumming up extra business for it, there's always a chance the choice will be taken away. Or maybe courts in some countries hold governments to environmental promises come hell or high water ... like is happening in my country with NOx emissions (the NOx emission limits are economically crippling, but the courts are holding the government to their promises).

Necessity is the mother of invention.

But there never will be. Hydrogen isn't a fuel, you can't mine it, you have to produce it either by cracking hydrocarbons or electrolysis of water and neither process is efficient. The only way hydrogen even begins to make sense is if you have a massive surplus of cheap electricity.

Yes. It would just be a convenient (yet not efficient) way of storing energy for later use.
You can add "clean" to "surplus" and "cheap"... because for the time being at least, most of the electricity produced worldwide comes from... fossil fuels. And I'm not sure the combined efficiencies of the whole chain from producing hydrogen to the fuel cells to the electric engines would be in favor of this. I have significant doubts.
In the end fossil fuels are taken out of the equation so the price of those don't matter. If you google around a bit about costs of producing and transporting hydrogen then you'll find projections that estimate the cost of hydrogen made from wind & solar to retail around US $5 per kg somewhere by 2050. Producing hydrogen is one of the few alternative revenue streams for countries that export fossil fuels. The alternative is to lose a significant amount of a country's income. For example: currently over 25% of the export value of Australia are fossil fuels. As a country you can't afford to lose that much.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2022, 11:52:40 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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