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“Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
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tom66:
The solution in the UK is simple: green stripe on licence plate.

Miyuki:

--- Quote from: rstofer on April 03, 2022, 04:21:38 am ---
--- Quote from: emece67 on March 30, 2022, 10:37:00 pm ---Here LPG is easily located in gas stations. I mean, approximately 1 on each 8 gas stations sells LPG. In my case, 3 of the 5 stations nearest to me house do have it. And some car makers do sell models that came, directly from the factory, running on LPG. An interesting option because of price/km and also because LPG cars have (here) less restrictions to enter city centers because of their lower NO emissions.

--- End quote ---
I have never seen a filling station that deals with LPG.  Maybe in Los Angeles or one of the other big cities but not anywhere near here in the California Central Valley.  There may be a few but they are far from common.
...

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It is an EU tax thing as here is ~100% tax on gasoline and little on LPG so it costs roughly half the price
But now are pushed more towards CNG, and LPG is considered dirty  ::) but it might change quickly as we know what is happening now

And that CNG is stored also at about 200 bars and you an easy get home trickle filling station. It was in the past mentioned as one of the benefits.
TimFox:
The normal taxicabs in Tokyo have used LPG for a long time to reduce air pollution and to take up too much space in the trunk to handle American luggage.
SiliconWizard:

--- Quote from: Someone on April 03, 2022, 02:24:17 am ---
--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 03, 2022, 02:01:02 am ---We're not going to get there by planting more wind turbines and solar panels.
--- End quote ---
Thats pretty much exactly how we get "there" (having cheap power and vibrant/diverse energy storage).

--- End quote ---

Yes, exactly. :-DD
Someone:

--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 03, 2022, 06:11:16 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on April 03, 2022, 02:24:17 am ---
--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 03, 2022, 02:01:02 am ---We're not going to get there by planting more wind turbines and solar panels.
--- End quote ---
Thats pretty much exactly how we get "there" (having cheap power and vibrant/diverse energy storage).
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Yes, exactly.
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So you agree now? Solar/wind is a way to produce cheap energy that supports energy storage such as hydrogen? I'm not seeing any alternatives that are cheaper, neither are electricity markets:
https://www.csiro.au/en/news/news-releases/2020/renewables-still-the-cheapest-new-build-power-in-australia
Which explicitly considers electrolytic production of Hydrogen becoming a viable economic proposal.

Complete agreement? Or would you like to clairfy where "there" is:

--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 03, 2022, 02:01:02 am ---
--- Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2022, 01:40:51 am ---
--- Quote from: Marco on April 03, 2022, 01:12:10 am ---Given the choice ... but lets say we arrive at a point where there's a trillion dollar liquid hydrogen market and some regulators interested in drumming up extra business for it, there's always a chance the choice will be taken away. Or maybe courts in some countries hold governments to environmental promises come hell or high water ... like is happening in my country with NOx emissions (the NOx emission limits are economically crippling, but the courts are holding the government to their promises).

Necessity is the mother of invention.
--- End quote ---
But there never will be. Hydrogen isn't a fuel, you can't mine it, you have to produce it either by cracking hydrocarbons or electrolysis of water and neither process is efficient. The only way hydrogen even begins to make sense is if you have a massive surplus of cheap electricity.
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Yes. It would just be a convenient (yet not efficient) way of storing energy for later use.
You can add "clean" to "surplus" and "cheap"... because for the time being at least, most of the electricity produced worldwide comes from... fossil fuels. And I'm not sure the combined efficiencies of the whole chain from producing hydrogen to the fuel cells to the electric engines would be in favor of this. I have significant doubts.
Short of some spectacular breakthrough I'm not aware of, it's only going to thappen from nuclear fusion, and we are still pretty far away from that goal.
We're not going to get there by planting more wind turbines and solar panels.
--- End quote ---
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