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“Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
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rstofer:

--- Quote from: nfmax on November 12, 2021, 05:43:02 pm ---
--- Quote from: Jester on November 12, 2021, 05:28:31 pm ---A bit off topic, I get a kick out of the endless naysayers regarding electric cars. If we focused on the problems during the “ Let’s  go to the moon “ phase of development, we would have never made it off the launchpad.

Meanwhile Tesla cars are everywhere (both of my neighbour's drive one), and Musk is the richest guy on the planet.

I have a good chuckle every time I read one of these “it’s not possible, doomed for failure “ scenarios.

--- End quote ---

Not only that, but at the same time as selling all those Teslas, Mr Musk is within a year of two of getting a rocket of his own to the actual moon!

--- End quote ---

Can you imagine the PR from using a Tesla as a Moon Rover!  Hang a few solar panels on the roof and it's good to go!  There's plenty of sun hours.  Yes, they would need to solve the temperature problem.

Whenever I hear the word "can't", I point the speaker back to July 20, 1969 when Neil Armstrong first stepped on the Moon!  There is no such thing as "can't".
nfmax:

--- Quote from: rstofer on November 12, 2021, 06:12:30 pm ---
--- Quote from: nfmax on November 12, 2021, 05:43:02 pm ---
--- Quote from: Jester on November 12, 2021, 05:28:31 pm ---A bit off topic, I get a kick out of the endless naysayers regarding electric cars. If we focused on the problems during the “ Let’s  go to the moon “ phase of development, we would have never made it off the launchpad.

Meanwhile Tesla cars are everywhere (both of my neighbour's drive one), and Musk is the richest guy on the planet.

I have a good chuckle every time I read one of these “it’s not possible, doomed for failure “ scenarios.

--- End quote ---

Not only that, but at the same time as selling all those Teslas, Mr Musk is within a year of two of getting a rocket of his own to the actual moon!

--- End quote ---

Can you imagine the PR from using a Tesla as a Moon Rover!  Hang a few solar panels on the roof and it's good to go!  There's plenty of sun hours.  Yes, they would need to solve the temperature problem.

Whenever I hear the word "can't", I point the speaker back to July 20, 1969 when Neil Armstrong first stepped on the Moon!  There is no such thing as "can't".

--- End quote ---

When Mr Musk launched his Tesla Roadster into space, I was most impressed that it didn't actually fall apart from the launch vehicle vibration. Clearly, cars are much better made today than they used to be. Can you imagine what might have happened to a Morris Minor launched on a Saturn V?
Faringdon:

--- Quote ---In fact, a good hydrogen EV will take about 25-30 minutes to refill at -10C ambient.
--- End quote ---
Thas a good point, i looked into it, and it seems to be because having  the water in the fuel cell ice up causes major problems...
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/automobiles/fuel-cells-in-the-deep-freeze.html
..however, the above article seems to suggest that they think they might be able to solve this , "might".
nctnico:

--- Quote from: Faringdon on November 12, 2021, 06:22:23 pm ---
--- Quote ---In fact, a good hydrogen EV will take about 25-30 minutes to refill at -10C ambient.
--- End quote ---
Thas a good point, i looked into it, and it seems to be because having  the water in the fuel cell ice up causes major problems...
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/automobiles/fuel-cells-in-the-deep-freeze.html
..however, the above article seems to suggest that they think they might be able to solve this , "might".

--- End quote ---
That is a 17 year old article  :palm: Toyota's Mirai works down to -30 deg. C https://newsroom.toyota.eu/the-new-toyota-mirai/
Faringdon:
Thanks, its difficult to find articles accurately detailing what is the cold weather performance of hydrogen cars. (filling time, drive-ability in cold weather, etc)
...woops, just seen your article, ..ok...it looks like cold weather refilling for HEV's is now solved (?)...and it can be done just as fats as at say 20 degc ambient?

Google also doesnt give stats for percentage of  BEV batteries that get "rogue" cell.
If this is too high, it will be a major downer for BEVs.
And for those out-of-service-life BEV batteries that get used for the grid storage systems.....what's the rate (total stats)  at which they get "rogue" cell?....i bet its high.

Another downer for BEVs, is the lithium and cobalt for them is in countries which are a tad unstable (except Australia, but Australia may not have it available for long).
And how long will the supplies actually be available?....the mines might get depleted.
I reckon lithium supply fears is one of the reasons that Japan has totally committed to Hydrogen cars.
Recycling it out of used  BEV batteries is a situation which has yet to be proven possible on a super large scale. (reasons given in post #7 above)
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