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“Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”
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tom66:

--- Quote from: nctnico on November 12, 2021, 06:26:43 pm ---
--- Quote from: Faringdon on November 12, 2021, 06:22:23 pm ---
--- Quote ---In fact, a good hydrogen EV will take about 25-30 minutes to refill at -10C ambient.
--- End quote ---
Thas a good point, i looked into it, and it seems to be because having  the water in the fuel cell ice up causes major problems...
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/automobiles/fuel-cells-in-the-deep-freeze.html
..however, the above article seems to suggest that they think they might be able to solve this , "might".

--- End quote ---
That is a 17 year old article  :palm: Toyota's Mirai works down to -30 deg. C https://newsroom.toyota.eu/the-new-toyota-mirai/

--- End quote ---

Works != is a good performer.

Hydrogen vehicles still struggle to fuel when very cold - it's an unsolved problem with the technology.

Meanwhile a Tesla EV with a preheated battery can supercharge just as fast at -10C ambient as it can at 40C ambient.


--- Quote from: rstofer on November 12, 2021, 04:22:20 pm ---Opportunity charging at a supermarket or other public place also makes you a target for <insert something bad here>.  I can see places of employment because many are behind fences but I'm certainly not going to charge right next to an ATM machine.
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Can't see an AC charge while getting cash out being worthwhile (what, 250Wh, for 5 minutes at most?)  But at a supermarket you might be there for 45 minutes - 1 hour every week (depends how efficient you are I suppose.)  And I don't see why charging would make you any more of a risk, especially given it's more and more common.  I guess a moron could try cutting the live electrical cable.  Let's see how that goes for them.


--- Quote from: rstofer on November 12, 2021, 04:22:20 pm ---Were I still working, I would have been the guy building out multiple charging stations for our employees.  As we were essentially an engineering division of some 10,000 employees (far less in later years), how many stations would I need?  10% of current headcount?  We had enough incoming power (115kV 28MVA easily) but I would have had to dig up a lot of pavement to get the 12kV over to a dedicated substation (or several) to provide 240V for the chargers.  It would have been a monster project but the company would have just considered it a cost of doing business.  Charging would have been free.  I don't know what it might cost but I know I would take a flogging every day for a) it isn't done yet and b) it costs too much.  Such is the life of a project manager.
--- End quote ---

Workplace charging is a good example of somewhere where 2-3kW chargers are perfectly adequate.  Cars are typically parked up for between 8-10 hours per day, so even 2kW would get you 16kWh and for a five-day week, that's nigh on 80kWh - few people would use that much for their commute. 

It's my understanding that many old car parks in the USA had 'block heater' supplies in the colder states, at least at one point.  I think EVSE supplies in workplaces could be like this - 115V 15/20A single phase (and in Europe, 230V 10A.)  Unfortunately, regulations mean that EVSEs are a lot more expensive than just supplying power, what are you gonna do... but, despite this, they're still much cheaper than the actual cost of installing the parking space in the first place. (An average 'space' in a tarmacked parking lot is ca. $8,000 -- so a $400 EVSE isn't really going to blow the budget.)
nctnico:

--- Quote from: tom66 on November 13, 2021, 12:11:08 am ---It's my understanding that many old car parks in the USA had 'block heater' supplies in the colder states, at least at one point.  I think EVSE supplies in workplaces could be like this - 115V 15/20A single phase (and in Europe, 230V 10A.)  Unfortunately, regulations mean that EVSEs are a lot more expensive than just supplying power, what are you gonna do... but, despite this, they're still much cheaper than the actual cost of installing the parking space in the first place. (An average 'space' in a tarmacked parking lot is ca. $8,000 -- so a $400 EVSE isn't really going to blow the budget.)

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And then the tax collector comes around and fines the employer for handing out freebies to the employees. In the NL 'free' EV charging for employees is an administrative nightmare.
not1xor1:
Hydrogen vehicles is mainly a matter of greenwashing. They get hydrogen from methane, so why not using just methane as fuel?
Taking into account the energy involved in producing and storing hydrogen and fuel cells, methane cars would pollute much less.

On the other side EVs are rapidly improving and costs are getting lower and lower while new battery technologies are appearing (like Na-Ion batteries).

Unlike fuel cells, in future EVs batteries might also give energy back to the grid integrating with solar and wind energy, taking excess production and giving it back when there is no wind or sun.

Electricity is everywhere while an hydrogen grid is nowhere.

Hydrogen, when coming from solar of wind, might have a future as a partial or total replacement for methane in the methane grid.
IMHO its use in vehicles is a dead end.
Faringdon:

--- Quote --- in future EVs batteries might also give energy back to the grid integrating with solar and wind energy, taking excess production and giving it back when there is no wind or sun.
--- End quote ---
Thanks, i believe this has been tried, but from what i hear, its not the way forward for the solar/wind/battery world. To suceed with a solar/wind/battery  business, you really need to use high quality , new,  matched batteries. Its a long story why..but has to do with payback times etc etc . (unless of course, its for a hobbyist who wants to do it for fun)

--- Quote ---Hydrogen vehicles is mainly a matter of greenwashing. They get hydrogen from methane, so why not using just methane as fuel?
--- End quote ---
Thanks, i think there's other ways to produce hydrogen...and if those ways are powered 100% by renewables, then hydrogen is just as eco friendly as BEVs.

--- Quote ---That's important because we're not knee deep in Lithium.
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Thanks, this to me is one of the mains points for Hydrogen

--- Quote ---Hydrogen vehicles still struggle to fuel when very cold - it's an unsolved problem with the technology.

--- End quote ---
Thanks, im trying to find more on this...it does seem that if the water in the fuel cell turns to ice, then its a major downer for that fuel cell.....then again, some of the newer fuel cell stacks are  small and easy to replace if say their pre-heater (or whatever)  fails and they do get ice damaged.
nfmax:
AFAIK most hydrogen fuel cells still use platinum-group metal catalysts, though research is underway to replace them. But as it is, If I had a hydrogen car, I would be very wary of chavs with cordless angle grinders, given how prevalent catalytic converter theft has become. Don't want to get too close to Darwin in action, either
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