| General > General Technical Chat |
| “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV” |
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| Faringdon:
--- Quote ---See my reply #55 above: lithium is not terribly rare. --- End quote --- Thanks, from that link Lithium is 1700e-6 % of the earths crust. Platinium is 3.6e-6% of the earths crust. A BEV needs 10,000g of lithium A HEV needs 4.5g of platinum (according to Bosch) It also seems that its easier to recycle platinum out of a dead fuel cell, than to recycle all that 10kG of lithium out of a dead BEV battery(?) ...So its pretty even result for HEV and BEV here....thats assuming that the following link has the percentages accurate, which it may not(?) since up untll recently, lithium and platinum havent been required in bulk , so were possibly not investigated much? https://periodictable.com/Properties/A/CrustAbundance.al.html |
| wraper:
--- Quote from: Faringdon on November 13, 2021, 04:29:58 pm --- --- Quote ---See my reply #55 above: lithium is not terribly rare. --- End quote --- Thanks, from that link Lithium is 1700e-6 % of the earths crust. Platinium is 3.6e-6% of the earths crust. A BEV needs 10,000g of lithium A HEV needs 4.5g of platinum (according to Bosch) --- End quote --- According to Bosch for what? Catalytic converter? HEV is not a hydrogen powered vehicle. Fuel cells require 10-20 times more platinum. |
| nctnico:
--- Quote from: wraper on November 13, 2021, 04:42:09 pm --- --- Quote from: Faringdon on November 13, 2021, 04:29:58 pm --- --- Quote ---See my reply #55 above: lithium is not terribly rare. --- End quote --- Thanks, from that link Lithium is 1700e-6 % of the earths crust. Platinium is 3.6e-6% of the earths crust. A BEV needs 10,000g of lithium A HEV needs 4.5g of platinum (according to Bosch) --- End quote --- According to Bosch for what? Catalytic converter? HEV is not a hydrogen powered vehicle. Fuel cells require 10-20 times more platinum. --- End quote --- Not according to the latest developments where the amount of platinum required for the fuel cell approaches the amount needed for a regular catalytic converter for a gasoline car. Actually, according to the reports I've read: the less platinum used in the hydrogen <-> water converters, the more efficient it is. In the end it doesn't make sense to compare how rare materials are. It comes down to cost of mining, processing and the amount needed which are very different. For a good comparison you'd need to make a detailed analysis. On top of that you can also add more or less emphasis on political stability and the work environment for the miners. |
| TimFox:
--- Quote from: Faringdon on November 13, 2021, 04:29:58 pm --- --- Quote ---See my reply #55 above: lithium is not terribly rare. --- End quote --- Thanks, from that link Lithium is 1700e-6 % of the earths crust. Platinium is 3.6e-6% of the earths crust. A BEV needs 10,000g of lithium A HEV needs 4.5g of platinum (according to Bosch) It also seems that its easier to recycle platinum out of a dead fuel cell, than to recycle all that 10kG of lithium out of a dead BEV battery(?) ...So its pretty even result for HEV and BEV here....thats assuming that the following link has the percentages accurate, which it may not(?) since up untll recently, lithium and platinum havent been required in bulk , so were possibly not investigated much? https://periodictable.com/Properties/A/CrustAbundance.al.html --- End quote --- Chemistry is not my subject, but why would it more difficult to recycle lithium out of a dead battery than to extract metallic lithium from the lithium salts that are mined to produce lithium? |
| ejeffrey:
--- Quote from: nctnico on November 13, 2021, 11:45:58 am --- --- Quote from: not1xor1 on November 13, 2021, 09:31:52 am ---Unlike fuel cells, in future EVs batteries might also give energy back to the grid integrating with solar and wind energy, taking excess production and giving it back when there is no wind or sun. --- End quote --- Now calculate the price per kWh for doing that. Storing electricity in Li-ion gets expensive quickly especially when using a battery which isn't designed for that purpose. The power company would need to pay you tens of dollar / euro cents per kWh to cover your costs and someone else has to come up with that money. After a couple of hours it becomes more economical to use hydrogen as a storage medium. The worst mistake to make here is to focus solely on efficiency. Think about how much a mains adapter would cost if it where 99.9% efficient. It just doesn't make sense from a financial point of view. --- Quote ---Electricity is everywhere while an hydrogen grid is nowhere. --- End quote --- Actually there is. Especially if there is a natural gas grid. In the NL the natural gas infrastructure is being modified for use with hydrogen for a while now. --- End quote --- A few programs to upgrade distribution is not the same this as hydrogen being everywhere, or even much of anywhere. While 100% hydrogen is claimed as a goal, most of those efforts are blended with 10-20% hydrogen for combustion purposes. This is relatively easy to do although it is currently a considerably worse environmental profile than straight natural gas even with "green hydrogen" it's fine for an r&d demo but deploying 20% hydrogen blends today would set decarbonization programs back years. You can't use 20% hydrogen for fuel cell vehicles so until these pipelines go 100% hydrogen they can't be used for that purpose. That is a lot harder as 100% hydrogen is a much bigger explosion and fire risk and is incompatible with existing equipment. Given the rate of leaks from natural gas systems I'm very skeptical that hydrogen distribution to residential and light commercial properties will ever be practical although it is not impossible. Electricity on the other hand has been reliably delivered to hundreds of millions of houses and businesses for decades. So yes, hydrogen is currently nowhere. |
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