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| “Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV” |
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| nctnico:
--- Quote from: ejeffrey on November 13, 2021, 05:01:41 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on November 13, 2021, 11:45:58 am --- --- Quote from: not1xor1 on November 13, 2021, 09:31:52 am ---Unlike fuel cells, in future EVs batteries might also give energy back to the grid integrating with solar and wind energy, taking excess production and giving it back when there is no wind or sun. --- End quote --- Now calculate the price per kWh for doing that. Storing electricity in Li-ion gets expensive quickly especially when using a battery which isn't designed for that purpose. The power company would need to pay you tens of dollar / euro cents per kWh to cover your costs and someone else has to come up with that money. After a couple of hours it becomes more economical to use hydrogen as a storage medium. The worst mistake to make here is to focus solely on efficiency. Think about how much a mains adapter would cost if it where 99.9% efficient. It just doesn't make sense from a financial point of view. --- Quote ---Electricity is everywhere while an hydrogen grid is nowhere. --- End quote --- Actually there is. Especially if there is a natural gas grid. In the NL the natural gas infrastructure is being modified for use with hydrogen for a while now. --- End quote --- A few programs to upgrade distribution is not the same this as hydrogen being everywhere, or even much of anywhere. --- End quote --- It is not a matter of a few programs and blending: https://ihsmarkit.com/research-analysis/the-netherlands-to-refit-borderstraddling-natural-gas-grid-for.html Gasunie [is focusing] on the development of a pure hydrogen backbone for several reasons. Not only does the Netherlands have the opportunity to make a separate hydrogen backbone quite easily [by] using existing natural gas pipelines, |
| james_s:
--- Quote from: rstofer on November 13, 2021, 03:13:54 pm ---Many years ago, there was a movement to get vehicles powered by natural gas. Some utility companies bought into it as did many municipal bus systems. The public never did and that's why it is nearly impossible to find a filling station. I see fuel cells going the same way. Municipalities and utilities will buy into it (because they are forced to) but not much else. You can see that pattern in the California initiative to install 250 hydrogen stations and 250,000 battery charging stations. --- End quote --- When my dad worked for the Port of Seattle he said they had fleets of vehicles that ran off CNG. It works well for an operation that has a large enough fleet that they can have their own filling station on site but it wasn't enough of an improvement over gasoline for the infrastructure to pop up everywhere. I suspect you're right that the same thing will happen with hydrogen, if it is mandated, but generally I see it going nowhere. I've never seen a hydrogen filling station before in my life, as far as I know almost all of them that exist in this country are down in CA. |
| james_s:
--- Quote from: nctnico on November 13, 2021, 12:38:10 am ---And then the tax collector comes around and fines the employer for handing out freebies to the employees. In the NL 'free' EV charging for employees is an administrative nightmare. --- End quote --- Give it a rest man, that's the stupidest argument yet. It's a trivial matter to pass legislation to completely eliminate that hurdle. Even here in the USA with our back-asswards broken politics something like that is easily solved. Of course it doesn't need to be solved here because it's already not an issue, certain employers have been offering free EV charging for around a decade. Do you seriously not have employee perks in your country? That's bizarre. |
| NiHaoMike:
--- Quote from: james_s on November 12, 2021, 10:13:19 pm ---Right now at least there is a strong market for used EV batteries from wrecked cars. People are using them for conversions of older cars and for home energy storage. It will actually be nice as that market expands, there are all kinds of things I can use large banks of lithium ion batteries for. --- End quote --- Thank PG&E's neglect to maintain their infrastructure, forcing customers to look at alternative energy. Shortly after that energy crisis began, several resellers of used EV batteries saw a big boost in demand. With solar and batteries getting cheaper, I would expect more and more customers in those areas deciding to go off grid rather than put up with expensive, unreliable power. |
| nctnico:
--- Quote from: james_s on November 13, 2021, 07:07:17 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on November 13, 2021, 12:38:10 am ---And then the tax collector comes around and fines the employer for handing out freebies to the employees. In the NL 'free' EV charging for employees is an administrative nightmare. --- End quote --- Give it a rest man, that's the stupidest argument yet. It's a trivial matter to pass legislation to completely eliminate that hurdle. Even here in the USA with our back-asswards broken politics something like that is easily solved. Of course it doesn't need to be solved here because it's already not an issue, certain employers have been offering free EV charging for around a decade. Do you seriously not have employee perks in your country? That's bizarre. --- End quote --- Not tax free employee perks. Over here there are very strict limits on what employers can hand out for free and what counts as income. This legislation has been put in place to prevent employers paying employees with goods instead of money in order to evade taxes. This isn't trivial to change and you'd also need to think about how that is fair to people who come to work by bike or public transport. If you look at the big picture things are not simple. |
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