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“Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”

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Nusa:

--- Quote from: Faringdon on November 14, 2021, 12:00:19 am ---TAlso, IMHO, i reckon its easier to heat up a small fuel cell for -10degC operation, than heating up a big BEV car battery?

--- End quote ---

You're making a mountain out of a near-nothing. All you have to do to heat up a battery is to use it...both charging and discharging create heat. Thermal management is primarily there to get RID of heat in a BEV. Sure, it might be weaker for the first minutes, but it's a LARGE battery, you'll still get home. -10C (14F) is a common enough winter temperature for northern states in the US that this HAS met lots of real-world testing. -20C (-4F) is less common, but happens often enough in some areas to be well-tested as well.

This applies to most battery technologies. Back in the 1970s, if a very cold lead-acid car battery was cranking weakly, one of the tricks was to turn on the headlights (still incandescent then, so they pulled a few amps) for a few minutes. Using the battery heated it up. Next attempt to crank the engine would be much stronger.

Your li-ion battery in your smartphone is another example. Notice how it gets warm when you're making the phone work hard. Notice how it also gets warm when you're charging it.

nctnico:

--- Quote from: Nusa on November 14, 2021, 10:53:03 am ---Careful, hijacking into politics, especially if you start getting partisan or start calling real people names, is a great way to force moderators to act.

But yes, states are struggling about the issue of road taxes build into fuel prices. Hybrids aren't much of an issue, but BEV's aren't paying those taxes in most cases. It's still being ignored in many places, but long-term the revenue plan clearly needs to change.

--- End quote ---
Indeed. In the Netherlands BEV / FCEV drivers are likely slapped with a extra based on distance travelled to compensate for the loss of tax revenue otherwise collected through fuel. This will probably happen around 2025 or so.

Marco:

--- Quote from: james_s on November 13, 2021, 07:00:09 pm ---When my dad worked for the Port of Seattle he said they had fleets of vehicles that ran off CNG. It works well for an operation that has a large enough fleet that they can have their own filling station on site but it wasn't enough of an improvement over gasoline for the infrastructure to pop up everywhere. I suspect you're right that the same thing will happen with hydrogen, if it is mandated, but generally I see it going nowhere. I've never seen a hydrogen filling station before in my life, as far as I know almost all of them that exist in this country are down in CA.

--- End quote ---

There are LNG trucks and tank stations in my country (ie. cryogenic liquid natural gas). That's not too far removed from liquid hydrogen.

NiHaoMike:

--- Quote from: Nusa on November 14, 2021, 10:53:03 am ---But yes, states are struggling about the issue of road taxes build into fuel prices. Hybrids aren't much of an issue, but BEV's aren't paying those taxes in most cases. It's still being ignored in many places, but long-term the revenue plan clearly needs to change.

--- End quote ---
The easy solution would be to make every major road a toll road, with existing cars granted "grandfather plates" that exempts them from those tolls or at least greatly reduces the rate.

james_s:

--- Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 14, 2021, 03:11:24 pm ---The easy solution would be to make every major road a toll road, with existing cars granted "grandfather plates" that exempts them from those tolls or at least greatly reduces the rate.

--- End quote ---

I don't think that idea is likely to fly, people hate toll roads, and it would take a huge amount of infrastructure to implement. Unless every random back road and residential street was also made a toll road you'd find all of those clogged up with people avoiding the tolls. There has been talk of instituting a flat per mile tax, which is viable on newer cars that have OBDII or could use a GPS transponder.

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