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“Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”

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Faringdon:
Sorry if this got discussed here b4...couldn’t find it

IMHO, it looks like the "Battery EV" has the eight major problems (below) which will mean Hydrogen Fuel cell EV’s always taking at  the very least, 25% of the EV car market...?

1..Batteries are made of loads of cells. One cell going bad can invalidate the whole battery...so battery  wear out is a big problem for battery EVs...(with a battery, you never know just when that rogue cell is going to show, could be any time). Hydrogen cars use a much smaller battery, so this is less of a problem.

2..Recycing all those batterys will be too problematic (cost, time, danger, etc)

3..Lithium batteries can’t be charged at decent rate when below -10degc (even zero degC?). Discharging a lithium battery  is a bit dodgy when ambient is -10degC. {EDIT..?the Li batts can be heated to solve this.}

4..Lithium batteries degrade much quicker at ambient temperatures around 38degC plus

5..A 10 year Battery EV will have near zero second hand price, since it will be useless, since its battery will be pretty well dead.

6..You cant “home charge” a Battery EV if you live in a flat, or house without a drive. (OK, same goes for Hydrogen Fuel cell EV, but hydrogn EV is quicker to charge when youre "out on the road")

7..Lithium batteries use rare metals which aren’t found (in sufficient qty) in EU/UK/USA/AUS/NZ/SA.

8...A hydrogen Fuel cell EV can be  “recharged” much quicker than a battery EV. (EDIT see post#107 for HFCEV fuelling times with temperature)

wraper:
1. Fuel cells wear out faster than good batteries.
2. https://spectrum.ieee.org/lithiumion-battery-recycling-finally-takes-off-in-north-america-and-europe
3. Any decent EV has a thermal management system.
4. The same as 3.
5  Read 1. And nope, 10 year old Teslas do not cost 0.
6. It's not that hard to install such chargers. Norway does exactly that.
7. But fuel cells use precious metals like Platinum.
8. Refueling of a single car may be faster, however throughput of the refueling stations does not allow to refuel cars one after another. This is not even considering much higher cost compared to charging stall and problems with hydrogen transportation.

Faringdon:

--- Quote ---6. It's not that hard to install such chargers. Norway does exactly that.
--- End quote ---
Thanks, but There's a lot of space in Norway....a  big British housing estate full of terraced houses with no driveways, would have no Battery EV recharging facility near the house..
..Looking at places like Hunslett Carr or Harehills in Leeds, Walsall in Birmingham, Plumstead in London,  Bulwell in Nottingham, Barkerend in Bradford, plus the "non-luxury" areas of citys like  Manchester, Grimsby, Liverpool, Oldham, Leicester, Sheffield, Sunderland , etc etc.

For those "non-luxury" areas, owning an EV  car will mean councils building huge Hydrogen multi-story car parks, full of Hydrogran/Fuel cell cars (plus huge solar/wind farms, to do the electrolysis for them) .....the "non-luxury" Beeston resident will simply have to walk to the Hydrogen multi story, or electric scooter to it. If there wasnt enough wind or sun, then the "non luxury" resident will simply have to drive the hydrogen EV to a hydrogen station, and fill up with what they can there.


--- Quote --- Any decent EV has a thermal management system.
--- End quote ---
Thanks, but If you dont have a garage, and your EV is outdoors in ambient -10degC, then its going to take a lot of electricity to heat all that big battery up


--- Quote ---1. Fuel cells wear out faster than good batteries.
--- End quote ---
Thanks, but fuel cells are much smaller and lighter than EV batteries, so easier and cheaper to handle, easier to recycle...easier to take out of a hydrogen car and replace.


--- Quote ---1. Fuel cells wear out faster than good batteries.
--- End quote ---
Thanks, but google doesnt show stats yet  for how many battery EVs suffered battery_invalidation due to rogue cell.
I once worked in a place that was trying to develop a way of switching a rogue cell out of a big battery pack......its no easy thing to do...the Battery_EV industry certainly hasnt solved this issue yet. It will need to solve it, if Hydrogen/Fuel cell cars  are  to be knocked out of the equation.

rstofer:
Hydrogen isn't particularly efficient when you think about the amount of energy required to separate, compress, refrigerate, transport and dispense it.  See the graph:

https://theconversation.com/hydrogen-cars-wont-overtake-electric-vehicles-because-theyre-hampered-by-the-laws-of-science-139899

We're going to have a lot more battery charging stations then hydrogen refueling stations here in California.  The State is funding 200 hydrogen stations but 250,000 battery stations.  And that's not counting private enterprise.  We already have a lot of commercial (for pay) charging stations and many public buildings have free charging for employees.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/musk-calls-hydrogen-fuel-cells-stupid-but-tech-may-threaten-tesla.html

I have been driving EVs (Chevy Spark EV and Chevy Bolt) for the past 8 years and I like them a lot.  The Spark EV had more than 400 ft-lbs of torque putting it solidly in the 'muscle car' category.  They tamed things down for the Bolt and later Spark EVs.  High performance car, low performance driver, doesn't always end well, I guess.

For my simple needs, the 120V charger is adequate and requires no installation.

Faringdon:

--- Quote ---We're going to have a lot more battery charging stations then hydrogen refueling stations here in California
--- End quote ---
Thanks, i'll conceed that point straight away...theres loads of space in California....everybody probably has a driveway, or loads of space nearby to put charge points if they dont have a driveway. But look at places like Harehills in Leeds UK, even the Mill Road region of Cambridge UK.
(the above is probably the only text block  ever written that mentions both "California" and "Harehills" in the same paragraph..no offence to either location meant)


--- Quote ---https://theconversation.com/hydrogen-cars-wont-overtake-electric-vehicles-because-theyre-hampered-by-the-laws-of-science-139899
--- End quote ---
Thats a good report, but the energy associated with the production of EV batteries is a lot more than that associated with the production of fuel cells.
Also, the  intensity of labour required to break down big heavy EV batteries for recycling means the west will struggle to handle large uptake of battery EVs.
Also, that report, at the bottom says carbon footprint of battery_EV vs Hydrogen_EV is similar if both are charged up with renewable energy.

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