Author Topic: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.  (Read 25014 times)

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Offline Rick Law

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #125 on: November 23, 2019, 05:25:23 am »
...In one of my earlier replies in this thread, I cited the Unabomber (Ted Kaczynski) example.  According to Wikipedia, he has 167 IQ and started university early and graduated younger than average.  But his inability to handle the social interaction issues led him to eventual life-imprisonment.

Ted Bundy had an IQ of 136. Another killer, Nathan Leopold, had an IQ of 210 and graduated from Uni of Michigan at age 17. He apparently spoke 15 languages.
Robert Stroud (the Birdman of Alcatraz) had an IQ of 136. But most criminals, contrary to popular opinion, have a low IQ and are dumb enough to get caught.

According to the article (OP's link on the 8 year old going to college), the father said: "If he decided tomorrow to become a carpenter, that would not be a problem for us, as long as he is happy,"

The criteria for happiness changes at different stages in life.  A kid may be happy driving a taxi for now, 10 years later with a wife, a mortgage, and a baby coming...  Now, driving a taxi is not as happy as say another occupation with twice the income.  A better education before becoming a taxi driver may make the difference now, and higher IQ certainly would be a helping factor then or now.

So, I suspect, if given a choice, anyone would prefer higher IQ rather than lower.  As for me, even with the risk of becoming another Ted Bundy or worst, I wish I have/had a higher IQ and a better education.  A risk free life is impossible anyhow.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 05:28:25 am by Rick Law »
 

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #126 on: November 23, 2019, 10:07:35 am »
Here is where nature is playing a cruel game on us.  If you are very high IQ, you can go to college at a very young age with the older and more mature kids.  On average, you are not even as mature as people in your own age group and now you are up against the older and more matured college age kids...   But if you do manage to get there (there being your goal) even if immaturely, you can stay ahead and get further than others.

Yet there seems to be little to no evidence that the high IQ's who graduated super early go on to be be more successful?

Plenty of evidence. Education-wise they are definitely successful because they met their goals

Ok, so they met their goals early, great, congratulations. Now what?
It's 10 years later and they aren't special any more and they are just as "successful" as everyone else. Beating most other people in a 40-50 year career race by 5 years doesn't mean much in the scheme of things. It's like sprinting in an 800m race. You might be 100 yards ahead for a while, but eventually everyone of a similar capability catches up.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 10:11:48 am by EEVblog »
 

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #127 on: November 23, 2019, 10:11:34 am »
In one of my earlier replies in this thread, I cited the Unabomber (Ted Kaczynski) example.  According to Wikipedia, he has 167 IQ and started university early and graduated younger than average.  But his inability to handle the social interaction issues led him to eventual life-imprisonment.

Like I quoted above, the previous world record holder hasn't fared great. He's into stand-up comedy now?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Kearney
EDIT: Seems someone has removed the reference to standup comedy.

Found this, he's been doing, in his own words "whatever":

« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 10:16:03 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #128 on: November 23, 2019, 10:14:29 am »
Here is where nature is playing a cruel game on us.  If you are very high IQ, you can go to college at a very young age with the older and more mature kids.  On average, you are not even as mature as people in your own age group and now you are up against the older and more matured college age kids...   But if you do manage to get there (there being your goal) even if immaturely, you can stay ahead and get further than others.

Yet there seems to be little to no evidence that the high IQ's who graduated super early go on to be be more successful?

Plenty of evidence. Education-wise they are definitely successful because they met their goals

Ok, so they met their goals early, great, congratulations. Now what?
It's 10 years later and they aren't special any more and they are just as "successful" as everyone else. Beating most other people in a 40-50 year career race by 5 years doesn't mean much in the scheme of things. It's like sprinting in an 800m race. You might be 100 yards ahead for a while, but eventually everyone of a similar capability catches up.
Kinda happened to me BTW, I was qualified and working in industry by the time I was 17. Meh.

I can also relate. I worked in the IT industry when I was 14 years old. By the time I was 18 and going for jobs in large national organisations, I was up against everyone else. In a way, my age was a disadvantage and in some ways it still is (I'm now in my 30's). Even now I have to work harder and achieve more because my rank/position is atypical for someone of my age and people have this impression that at certain ages, you should be achieving or earning x. I was always the youngest at school and am generally the youngest among my peers and colleagues. I frequently sit in meetings and on panels with people old enough to be my parents and even though I have the experience, qualifications and certifications to prove my worth, I'm still looked down upon by some.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 10:18:11 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline Rick Law

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #129 on: November 25, 2019, 03:45:56 am »
In one of my earlier replies in this thread, I cited the Unabomber (Ted Kaczynski) example.  According to Wikipedia, he has 167 IQ and started university early and graduated younger than average.  But his inability to handle the social interaction issues led him to eventual life-imprisonment.

Like I quoted above, the previous world record holder hasn't fared great. He's into stand-up comedy now?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Kearney
EDIT: Seems someone has removed the reference to standup comedy.
...

...
...
Here is where nature is playing a cruel game on us.  If you are very high IQ, you can go to college at a very young age with the older and more mature kids.  On average, you are not even as mature as people in your own age group and now you are up against the older and more matured college age kids...   But if you do manage to get there (there being your goal) even if immaturely, you can stay ahead and get further than others.
...
...
I can also relate. I worked in the IT industry when I was 14 years old. By the time I was 18 and going for jobs in large national organisations, I was up against everyone else. In a way, my age was a disadvantage and in some ways it still is (I'm now in my 30's). Even now I have to work harder and achieve more because my rank/position is atypical for someone of my age and people have this impression that at certain ages, you should be achieving or earning x. I was always the youngest at school and am generally the youngest among my peers and colleagues. I frequently sit in meetings and on panels with people old enough to be my parents and even though I have the experience, qualifications and certifications to prove my worth, I'm still looked down upon by some.

Here hides the irony of the "cruel game", isn't it.  High IQ gives you a head start and higher potential, but high IQ is not an assurance of success.  It is a cruel irony that one with higher IQ will be up against worst odds - by likely being behind one's peers in maturity, experience, and perceived stature.

I don't think we can find a definition of success that we can all agree on.  Someone may just see being a stand-up comedian as what he/she wants to be and thus a being one is a huge success.  Others may want to be a auto-mechanic and being that would is a huge success.  Both being comedian or being mechanic likely could have been accomplished equally well by someone with much lower IQ, but what the heck, the guy is happy so he succeeded.  Right?

I used to be in the camp "as long as he/she is happy" but then I came to conclude that one may eventually asks "who moved my cheese".  So I came to conclude that availability of options is an important criteria for sustained happiness.  So, the more options one has, the more successful one is.

Having a good education (job qualification) and resource (money) is probably a good way to have more options - money to last till you find the moved cheese and acceptability (job qualification) when you do find it.  Better yet, once one stores up enough resources (money in the bank), one has one's own stock of cheese that no others can move.  Now one can spend one's time planning for the next expedition to the Himalayas, or the next trip to the local pub, or even buy your own pub so you can be the stand-up comedian there without ever worry about being kicked out.

Having higher IQ helps both in education and income, so from my perspective having higher IQ increases the potential of being happy, but it is not a guarantee to happiness and the probability of success is probably lower than average due to nature's cruel game.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 03:50:54 am by Rick Law »
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #130 on: November 25, 2019, 08:33:14 am »
Yesterday there was a tv interview with this kid and his parents.
The kid seemed quit normal actually, fun , laughing, did not know if he wanted to become a F1 racing driver, or neuro surgeon or DJ, so quite normal for  his age I would say ;D
The parents esp the father however made a different impression on me (as far as you can get one from a tv interview that is). He and his wife now put their lives in duty of that of their son, hmmmmmmm
Many universities over the world want this kid. But he (the kid) may decide, so California or Netherlands or England all still on the table.
And if the kid decides he wants to go to California, the whole family will move there. That is a big difference with normal families ofcourse.

But the kid seems fine, his professor (also in the interview) said they had to brake him now and then since he would go on and on and considers studying more a hobby than work, he just loves to learn and bring it in practice.
We'll see how this develops but for now he looks like a happy kid to me and I guess all the comments in this topic are biased and projections from own experiences, every individual is unique.
 

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #131 on: November 25, 2019, 11:26:24 am »
We'll see how this develops but for now he looks like a happy kid to me and I guess all the comments in this topic are biased and projections from own experiences.

None of us have any idea, including you.
If you want biased, TV edited interviews are notoriously so, and very often have an agenda for the story.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #132 on: November 25, 2019, 11:28:13 am »
None of us have any idea, including you.
Correct. That is why this topic can be closed  :)
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #133 on: November 25, 2019, 12:14:07 pm »
What I wonder is... what's the IQ of Greta Thunberg? >:D
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Offline Avacee

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #134 on: December 10, 2019, 07:15:30 pm »
Update: depending on your interpretation he's either dropped out or his parents had a sulk and withdrew him because the university said he still had too many exams to sit before his 10th birthday and the parents really wanted him to be the first under 10 to graduate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50734000

 

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #135 on: December 10, 2019, 07:22:23 pm »
No matter if it was his decision or parent's, this kind of illustrates the problem with things like this. He was going for some sort of lateral record, not the actual knowledge. There are many legitimate reasons to drop out, but I can't really see any that would apply to a 10 year old boy. Excluding vanity, of course.

Also, what is he going to do now? Find a new University in 2 weeks and finish the degree? Why abandon the progress you've made simply because you will run over some arbitrary time frame?

I guess with this story we've got the answer. This was a publicity stunt all along.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 09:06:42 pm by ataradov »
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Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #136 on: December 10, 2019, 09:08:18 pm »
I didn't notice this thread and mistakenly opened a subject on it sorry about that.

I wonder how they assisting this young learner.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50734000
Quote
ut Eindhoven University told them there were still too many exams Laurent needed to take before then.

His parents refused an offer of a mid-2020 graduation date, and immediately removed him from the course.

They allowing him extra time to finish mid next year.
So that shows that the University is trying to help
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 09:10:09 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #137 on: December 10, 2019, 09:12:00 pm »
Well, when you are a genius, passing exams is just above you, apparently. I'm not sure how this is University's fault though. Seems like he failed to pass the exams in time. Which is predictable, because as it was mentioned earlier, no matter how smart you are, there is a considerable amount of work that goes into the degree, and you can't accelerate a lot of that.

I'm not clear why the university decided to participate in this. Stunts like this lower the value of the degree, IMO.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 09:14:47 pm by ataradov »
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Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #138 on: December 11, 2019, 12:28:11 am »
The only thing they could have said or reworded, if he doesn't complete the exams in time this year we will give him until mid next year to finish it.

It almost sounded to me like an arranged marriage where the parents were demanding graduation without realistically allowing enough time to finish up.
 

Offline blacksheeplogic

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #139 on: December 11, 2019, 01:05:28 am »
He was going for some sort of lateral record, not the actual knowledge.

I guess with this story we've got the answer. This was a publicity stunt all along.

I think the title was clue enough.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #140 on: December 11, 2019, 01:23:35 am »
Poor kid, this is even much worst than publicity stunt, its purely child exploitation, Dutch authority or child protection agency should start an investigation.

Offline TK

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #141 on: December 11, 2019, 01:28:41 am »
Apparently the parents want him to graduate at a certain age (trying to beat some sort of world record?) and the university is saying that he needs 6 more months to complete all the tests.

The parents are withdrawing him so he can go to start a PhD program in the US

Poor kid, let him have a childhood!  In 15 years he will be on par or just a little above the average person, him alone will not change the world. Not worth the sacrifice.
 

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #142 on: December 11, 2019, 01:48:23 am »
Update: depending on your interpretation he's either dropped out or his parents had a sulk and withdrew him because the university said he still had too many exams to sit before his 10th birthday and the parents really wanted him to be the first under 10 to graduate.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50734000

Quote from his father:
Quote
"If a child can play football well, we all think the media attention is great. My son has a different talent. Why should he not be proud of that?"

WTF, who's stopping him or telling him he shouldn't be proud of what he's done already?
Insane.
The parents have had a dummy spit and taken their bat and ball and gone home.
Sure, it might have been the kid that spat the dummy over not being able to graduate before he was 10yo, but it still falls on the parents in that case for not going "hey, don't worry, another 6 months is no big deal"
Good on the university for not pandering too much toward this, it makes a mockery of the degree, and acknowledging that doing the course in 10 months would not sufficiently develop "insight, creativity and critical analysis".
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 01:50:42 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline Berni

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #143 on: December 11, 2019, 06:20:27 am »
Yep the university had a special exception for him as there is no way you could do the amount of work needed to get an engineering degree in such a short time. Possibly for the university to get lots of press coverage and free advertising.

Also just because you can quickly pass exams does not mean you are smart. For a lot of school this just means you are good at memorizing stuff, especially for the first 10 years of education. Passing a history of geography exam is purely just about remembering things you read in the textbook. If you have good memory then you can finish a semester worth of history in a few days. For things like math yes its a lot more difficult, but if your ability to remember and quickly recall something is fine grained enough then you can just memories all the common steps for solving math problems. Physics is just again memorization of formulas with a sprinkle of math tacked on the end to calculate things.

The engineering highschool i went to tried implementing more relaxed attendance rules (Before this you needed written and signed parental permission to miss class since students are under 18). I used the new relaxed rules to miss class a lot, since it was more fun spending the useless class in a bar than wasting time sitting in class and not listening anyway. Yet not long after the rules ware revoked because of complaints from students (and there parrents) that never miss classes. The argument being they still get the same grades and everything despite them putting in effort to attend every single class. :palm:

Being forced to sit in boring classes was a big problem for me because i have major attention span issues when i find something uninteresting. Learning it from the textbook 1 day before the exam, passing the exam with an okay bit not great grade and then forgetting 90% of what i learned in the next week was the way that worked for me. I have sort of 'selective memory' where i rapidly forget uninteresting things, so learning a boring subject over the course of a month in 1 or 2 hour spans of time did not work for me. I was perceived as pretty smart, but im not really, i was just optimizing for the least effort route trough this school thing.
 

Offline Yansi

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #144 on: December 11, 2019, 12:13:08 pm »
Having higher IQ helps both in education and income, so from my perspective having higher IQ increases the potential of being happy, but it is not a guarantee to happiness and the probability of success is probably lower than average due to nature's cruel game.

I disagree. Higher IQ usually leads to depression, certainly not happiness. Success, sure, maybe.
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #145 on: December 11, 2019, 12:52:21 pm »
I doubt the data would support a “usually leads to” correlation between high IQ and depression.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #146 on: December 11, 2019, 02:43:05 pm »
Apparently the parents want him to graduate at a certain age (trying to beat some sort of world record?) and the university is saying that he needs 6 more months to complete all the tests.

The parents are withdrawing him so he can go to start a PhD program in the US

Poor kid, let him have a childhood!  In 15 years he will be on par or just a little above the average person, him alone will not change the world. Not worth the sacrifice.
You know, that when I was in university, and wanted something done faster, or different, they told me "Tough shit, we dont have this course only every year, not every half year. Deal with it." I dont see a reason why they should make exceptions. One of the things you lear at university is to deal with life situations like this. And to learn how to drink like a proper man. And to see how you deal with losing friends because they have a baby or they dont pass a test and cannot continue the university. Its not just about the subjects. Too bad, his parents have trouble understanding this, because probably it will lead him to a extremely dysfunctional life, with several psychological problems.
IQ of 145 is not even that high. It is 3 sigma above average, meaning 0.15% of the population has that much. Or statistically, 65 people on this forum. Probably more, because of the correlation between hobby/occupation and general intelligence. So it is typical "do as I say otherwise I turn the media against you".
 

Offline Koen

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #147 on: December 11, 2019, 04:46:44 pm »
He has leverage, you didn't. He'll go on to greener fields, you couldn't.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #148 on: December 11, 2019, 05:28:41 pm »
Which greener fields are you talking about. He does not have working experience and will not get it until certain age because of labour regulations, so noone will give him a job. He will be contained in the child princess role. And by the working age his abilities may change.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Belgian boy Laurent Simons heads off to university aged 8.
« Reply #149 on: December 11, 2019, 05:40:16 pm »
Also just because you can quickly pass exams does not mean you are smart. For a lot of school this just means you are good at memorizing stuff, especially for the first 10 years of education. Passing a history of geography exam is purely just about remembering things you read in the textbook. If you have good memory then you can finish a semester worth of history in a few days. For things like math yes its a lot more difficult, but if your ability to remember and quickly recall something is fine grained enough then you can just memories all the common steps for solving math problems. Physics is just again memorization of formulas with a sprinkle of math tacked on the end to calculate things.
Having a good memory helps indeed. Far less need for reasoning why but at some point memory alone doesn't work.

Quote
Yet not long after the rules ware revoked because of complaints from students (and there parrents) that never miss classes. The argument being they still get the same grades and everything despite them putting in effort to attend every single class. :palm:
That reminds me of a semester of PSpice. We would get a test where you where allowed to use the manual and about 50% of the test was just plain electrical network analysis anyway. And then there where 2 extra points for a practicum. I decided to skip classes and the practicum. A couple of weeks after the test we had the same teacher and I was called to come forward. Ohoh...  maybe I failed due to skipping the practicum :scared:  Nothing like that though. He told me I had the highest grade of all students and because of that I got the practicum points for free. I never felt so much hate and envy as on that moment...

Back to Laurent:
Apparently the parents want him to graduate at a certain age (trying to beat some sort of world record?) and the university is saying that he needs 6 more months to complete all the tests.
I get the same feeling.  In a Dutch interview the parents claim a culture clash between Belgium and the Netherlands. I find this hard to believe because Eindhoven is 15km from the Belgian border. Now they want to send him to a university in the US. Talking about a culture clash...
Quote
Poor kid, let him have a childhood!  In 15 years he will be on par or just a little above the average person, him alone will not change the world. Not worth the sacrifice.
Well, if Laurent is clever he piles a few more studies on top to become an expert in several fields. Someone who is an expert in several fields can be extremely valuable for developing new technologies (and will confuse the hell out of any HR droid  >:D).
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 05:44:41 pm by nctnico »
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