Author Topic: Best microscope for wafer viewing  (Read 31502 times)

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Offline Rupunzell

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2015, 05:39:54 pm »
For generalized microscope images, the Zeiss Ultraphot is quite desirable to this day.
http://www.optovid.de/mikroskope-und-laborgeraete/Auflichtmikroskope/-Ultraphot_III-1396886629.html

Each year Nikon run a "small world" image competition.
http://www.microscopyu.com/smallworld/gallery/index.html



Bernice
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2015, 10:49:04 pm »
As for what the camera sees, these aren't infinity-corrected objectives*, so it's quite straightforward (once you've spent a while studying all this :-)): the eyepiece is not involved at all, the objective projects its image directly (well, via some mirrors/prisms) on the camera sensor, but 5, 10 or 50 times bigger than real life. The field of view of the supplied camera is 5.70mm(H) x 4.28mm(V)

That's for the supplied camera (I'm looking to buy one without that camera.
What about if I plug on my own Sony NEX-5T?
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2015, 10:53:50 pm »
That's for the supplied camera (I'm looking to buy one without that camera.
What about if I plug on my own Sony NEX-5T?

Ah, got it:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SONY-NEX-3-NEX-5-NEX-7-DIGITAL-CAMERA-LENS-ADAPTER-FOR-23-30-mm-MICROSCOPES-/261306702512
x2 widefield equivalent to the x10 eyepiece
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2015, 11:04:50 pm »
Still a toy..
Limited lighting options, the mechanicals are rink-dinky unstable and totally unsuitable for high magnification.

Have you tried the Amscope? or are you just guessing?
I don't need super high magnification, just reasonably high and good enough for some HD video.
Of course I don't expect it to be as good as an industry leading one.

Quote
It appears to be transmitted light (useless for viewing wafers) and only bright field lighting, no dark field and no infinity corrected objectives. All of which are serious limitations for lighting and viewing options.

Why is the lighting on this useless for wafers?
According this:
http://www.microscan.com/en-us/technology/machine%20vision%20lighting/brightfieldanddarkfieldlighting.aspx
Brightfield lighting is ideal for bright and shiny reflective surfaces, or which wafer and other metal stuff like bond wires etc will be.
It specifically says it's suitable for wafer viewing.

Quote
Those glass slide clips are a joke as those are intended for glass microscope slides and they are a total pain in the arse to use. No decent biological transmitted light microscope today has those clips.

Agreed. I'm assuming they removable.
And I'm not after a biological microscope, I'm after a metallurgical one. I will be viewing dies, hybrids, bond wires, PCB's in fine detail etc.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 11:07:04 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline rs20

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2015, 11:22:09 pm »
Ah, got it:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SONY-NEX-3-NEX-5-NEX-7-DIGITAL-CAMERA-LENS-ADAPTER-FOR-23-30-mm-MICROSCOPES-/261306702512
x2 widefield equivalent to the x10 eyepiece
Nice! It's funny how your NEX-5T has a four-times (per side) larger sensor than the Aptina, so they stick a 2x instead of a 0.5x lens on it and it again, turns out roughly the same field of view as the x10 eyepiece.

[Just throwing it out there] If only you had a camera with a ~11mm wide sensor, you wouldn't need to use any adaptor at all (1x = plain empty tube, unless they're doing something more complicated than necessary), and could avoid the (admittedly minimal) risk of the camera lens adapter worsening your image quality. Digital zoom is when you use only part of your sensor. Makes me wonder if using your 23.5mm wide NEX-7 sensor with an optics-free "1x" adapter and simply using the digital zoom of the camera would give better quality overall. Possibly an interesting experiment for $13.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2015, 12:27:05 am »
Makes me wonder if using your 23.5mm wide NEX-7 sensor with an optics-free "1x" adapter and simply using the digital zoom of the camera would give better quality overall. Possibly an interesting experiment for $13.

Perhaps, yes I'd probably try both.
My NEX VG30 video camera also have the same E-mount and sensor size. But it's big and bulky though, so probably no advantage in using that over the NEX 5T
 

Offline Rupunzell

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2015, 03:46:43 am »
Have you tried the Amscope? or are you just guessing?
I don't need super high magnification, just reasonably high and good enough for some HD video.
Of course I don't expect it to be as good as an industry leading one.

*No guess, Tried them at a local microscope dealer and purchased them used with dismal satisfaction. The qualifier here, experience & skilled user of research and lab grade microscopes. For those new to microscopes, Amscope and similar are going to be a LOT better than nothing.

*What troubles me about these made in China microscopes is their overall quality and optical performance. The bodies are made of very soft and low quality aluminum in critical parts with pot metal zinc castings for where they can get away with using it. The knobs are crack prone styrene plastic, the screws are soft with poorly formed threads and heads, the mechanical design is poor. Optically, there is geometric distortion, axial and lateral color problems, field flatness problems and overall low contrast, flare prone and low resolution. This is visible in the sample images posted by the ebay seller.

Quote
It appears to be transmitted light (useless for viewing wafers) and only bright field lighting, no dark field and no infinity corrected objectives. All of which are serious limitations for lighting and viewing options.

Why is the lighting on this useless for wafers?
According this:
http://www.microscan.com/en-us/technology/machine%20vision%20lighting/brightfieldanddarkfieldlighting.aspx
Brightfield lighting is ideal for bright and shiny reflective surfaces, or which wafer and other metal stuff like bond wires etc will be.
It specifically says it's suitable for wafer viewing.

*Bright field axial light system requires a high quality beam splitter with a very good light system behind it. Beyond this, the objectives need to have low internal reflections to produce a good image.

*Here are some sample images made using various lighting system with a high quality microscope. Note how the different lighting systems affect the image details presented. These are old 4000 series logic and single device dies. Smaller geometries will impose even greater demand on the optical and lighting system.
https://resnicklab.wordpress.com/tag/4000-series/

*Have a look at their microscope hardware..
https://resnicklab.wordpress.com/laboratory-resources/microscopy/
*Note their Zeiss Ultraphot III, circa late 1960's to 1970's.

"Microscopes have been around for about 500 years- they are one of the oldest scientific instruments that are still in regular use. Obviously, the microscopes we use today greatly outperform the microscopes used by Hooke and van Leeuwenhoek, but you may be surprised to learn that the world’s best microscopes from the 1960s work as well as state-of-the-art microscopes made today."

That statement is why investing in a high quality lab or research grade microscope is worth while and staying away form hobby-entry microscopes is recommended by those with lots of microscope experience.

Quote
Agreed. I'm assuming they removable.
And I'm not after a biological microscope, I'm after a metallurgical one. I will be viewing dies, hybrids, bond wires, PCB's in fine detail etc.

*HD video will place high demands on the microscope's optical and lighting system. This will become apparent upon the first imaged made with a less than high quality microscope.

*Magnification is not the important number for microscopes, Image resolution (directly related to NA for a given magnification), contrast, color rendition-color correction, geometric distortion and other non-specificed factors are more importing than the simple magnification number.  Adding to this, system flexibility and ability to adapt to imaging requirements, and overall mechanical quality matters.. a great deal.

*This comes from being an owner of a Leitz Ergolux, Zeiss stereo microscope and others. This all began during my years of working with microwave hybrids and trying to understand how die geometry of discrete devices relate to electrical specification and behavior of these devices. Using a high quality microscope is a basic tool for this work.

*Know there is a learning curve to using a microscope and the images viewed using properly adjusted eye pieces to your vision will always be better than recorded images or images presented on a video monitor.


Bernice
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 03:51:27 am by Rupunzell »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2015, 04:38:45 am »
*This comes from being an owner of a Leitz Ergolux, Zeiss stereo microscope and others. This all began during my years of working with microwave hybrids and trying to understand how die geometry of discrete devices relate to electrical specification and behavior of these devices. Using a high quality microscope is a basic tool for this work.

Of course. But all I want to do is shoot some youtube videos.
I currently use a $30 macro lens on the video camera I use for all my teardown closeups that has some horrible distortion, yet virtually no one has ever complained about it, it's good enough for the job.
 

Offline Rupunzell

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2015, 04:41:06 am »
If all are happy with the results of this set up, stay with it.
No reason to change..at all.


Bernice



Of course. But all I want to do is shoot some youtube videos.
I currently use a $30 macro lens on the video camera I use for all my teardown closeups that has some horrible distortion, yet virtually no one has ever complained about it, it's good enough for the job.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2015, 06:02:02 am »
If all are happy with the results of this set up, stay with it.
No reason to change..at all.

I am, but I'm not replacing this, I need something with more magnification for smaller stuff. My macro lens only has 13mm FOV.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2015, 06:25:16 am »
 

Offline rs20

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2015, 06:30:45 am »
So who votes for the Leitz Ergolux?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LEITZ-ERGOLUX-Brightfield-MICROSCOPE-/141592560075

I cast one untrained, uneducated vote for the Leitz, that brand name has got to be worth something alone!
 

Offline Rupunzell

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2015, 06:47:38 am »
There is an entire macro-micro world of discovery waiting for you.
Seriously consider venturing into it with the proper tools.

More magnification/smaller FOV means increased resolution and all related that comes with that requirement.
Know the specific trade offs of each microscope system and these trade offs fit with light and optical limitations.

Suggest doing some study, reading up on this topic before making any purchase. There are many resources on microscopy on the web and in written literature. Another possibility would be to visit your local University and speak with professors who work with microscopes. They can help a great deal with information and real live demonstrations of all this microscope stuff.

There are no easy-instant-low cost solutions, they are all a set of trade-offs which the user makes their peace with and lives with.


Bernice


I need something with more magnification for smaller stuff. My macro lens only has 13mm FOV.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2015, 07:00:34 am »
There is an entire macro-micro world of discovery waiting for you.
Seriously consider venturing into it with the proper tools.
More magnification/smaller FOV means increased resolution and all related that comes with that requirement.
Know the specific trade offs of each microscope system and these trade offs fit with light and optical limitations.
Suggest doing some study, reading up on this topic before making any purchase. There are many resources on microscopy on the web and in written literature. Another possibility would be to visit your local University and speak with professors who work with microscopes. They can help a great deal with information and real live demonstrations of all this microscope stuff.

I would love to do all that, but I don't have the time nor the inclination. I've already done enough that tells me the Amscope one will, with quite high likelihood do what I want.
The only choice is to go something better 2nd hand with the Leitz ergolux instead.
I just want a half decent microscope that I can attach an existing video camera too so I can get some teardown shots I haven't been able to get before.
 

Offline Rupunzell

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2015, 07:12:30 am »
CAUTION !!!

The objectives are bright field only. These objectives do not support dark field. These are not the ideal objectives for the Ergolux.

These are what it should have, NPL - DF, not plain NPL.
http://www.bmisurplus.com/uploads/product_addl_images/30136_1_.jpg

One of the five objectives are missing and these are NPL objectives which are OK. The illuminator module is 0.8X. Two versions were offered, 0.8X and 1X. This one has the standard stage which has a coaxial controls for X-Y.

Early versions of the Ergolux has RMS threaded objectives. Later versions of the Ergolux has larger thread size objectives and are offered in APO. These also have the objective motor controls as buttons on the front.
http://www.fabsurplus.com/sdi_catalog/salesItemDetails.do?id=21879

Ergolux were often configured for X-Y measurement and film thickness measurement as required.


Bernice

So who votes for the Leitz Ergolux?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LEITZ-ERGOLUX-Brightfield-MICROSCOPE-/141592560075
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2015, 07:18:12 am »
CAUTION !!!
The objectives are bright field only. These objectives do not support dark field. These are not the ideal objectives for the Ergolux.

So ultimately what does that mean in the real world of what I want it for?
What's the problem?
The other one on ebay has both? (but no original light source )

Quote
These are what it should have, NPL - DF, not plain NPL.
http://www.bmisurplus.com/uploads/product_addl_images/30136_1_.jpg

One of the five objectives are missing and these are NPL objectives which are OK.

NPL is still much better than an Amscope optics, right?


Quote
The illuminator module is 0.8X. Two versions were offered, 0.8X and 1X. This one has the standard stage which has a coaxial controls for X-Y.

Is that good or bad?

Quote
Early versions of the Ergolux has RMS threaded objectives. Later versions of the Ergolux has larger thread size objectives and are offered in APO. These also have the objective motor controls as buttons on the front.

So both units on ebay are the old model? Is this a problem?


I just want to make sure I'm not buying something that will be useless for my needs because it's missing something, has a wrong thingamejig etc.
I'm pretty darn sure the Amscope will do exactly what I want, so it's the safe but probably lower quality optical option.
 

Offline Rupunzell

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2015, 07:23:51 am »
Other choices:

Leitz-Leitz M420. These fit between the 13mm FOV and higher magnifications offered by the Ergolux system. Very high optical quality, expensive to this day due to demand and their specialization of which there are limited choices.
http://www.savazzi.net/photography/wild_leica_m420.htm

Stereo Zoom with a Photo tube. These offer up to a few 100X with reasonable image quality. The main features to stereo zoom microscopes is depth perception and objective to subject distance.

http://www.nikon.com/news/2009/0709_smz745t_01.htm


Bernice


I would love to do all that, but I don't have the time nor the inclination. I've already done enough that tells me the Amscope one will, with quite high likelihood do what I want.
The only choice is to go something better 2nd hand with the Leitz ergolux instead.
I just want a half decent microscope that I can attach an existing video camera too so I can get some teardown shots I haven't been able to get before.
 

Offline Rupunzell

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2015, 07:34:27 am »

So ultimately what does that mean in the real world of what I want it for?
What's the problem?
The other one on ebay has both? (but no original light source )

*Bright field image:
https://resnicklab.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/dsc06313.jpg

*Dark field image:
https://resnicklab.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/dsc063151.jpg

The ability and option to deliver a different view means more possible information.

Quote
NPL is still much better than an Amscope optics, right?

*Yes. Objectives are interchangeable and upgradeable. Simply purchase as required. Ideally, having the NPL-DF objectives from the very start stops the re-purchase cycle.

Quote
The illuminator module is 0.8X. Two versions were offered, 0.8X and 1X. This one has the standard stage which has a coaxial controls for X-Y.

Is that good or bad?

*Neither, good or bad, that is the standard offering.

Quote
Early versions of the Ergolux has RMS threaded objectives. Later versions of the Ergolux has larger thread size objectives and are offered in APO. These also have the objective motor controls as buttons on the front.

So both units on ebay are the old model? Is this a problem?

*No, The newer ones tend to cost MORE and the objectives also cost MORE. There are fewer of these as they are still in demand by the semi fab folks... which makes the older ones a great value. Just another item to be aware of.


I just want to make sure I'm not buying something that will be useless for my needs because it's missing something, has a wrong thingamejig etc.
I'm pretty darn sure the Amscope will do exactly what I want, so it's the safe but probably lower quality optical option.

*Until one sees and understands the difference in image quality and user ergonomics ( at 100X, consider for a moment the degree of precision required to make meaningful x-y stage movements of the microscope subject?. The Amscope does not appear to have precision x-y movement stage, just up -down for focus). Then the Amscope has a problem, a real problem.


Bernice
 

Offline rs20

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2015, 09:52:27 am »
*Bright field image:


*Dark field image:
https://resnicklab.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/dsc063151.jpg

<Massive grain of salt>
Hold on, excuse my ignorance, but how can this be a bright field image:? https://resnicklab.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/dsc06313.jpg

Correct me if I'm wrong, but brightfield means that the light is underneath the sample, shining through it, so very loosely speaking you're looking at a silhouette. Light can't shine through a chip, so the image would just be black/blank/absent, right? Or is that chip completely de-potted, and are chips actually transparent once you've removed all the plastic? <question invalid if my understanding is incorrect>Is Dave planning to de-pot things to that extent?</question>

Furthermore, one has to be cautious with the term "dark field" imaging, because it can refer to two different things:
A. "Traditional" dark field [TODO: figure out the real correct term]: Just like traditional bright field imaging, but a little dark disc prevents light from the source entering the objective directly on-axis. This means that light has to bounce off the specimen for it to be make it to the sensor/eyepiece, so the image is a bright sample on a dark background (background = "field"). Since light is likely to still be hitting the objective, but out of its field of view, the objective must be of enough quality to dispose of this light efficiently; much like how good quality photographic lenses avoid lens flare when the sun is out of frame. This quality/ability grants an objective the -DF suffix, meaning suitable for dark field. Crucially, if you stick a PCB or a full-sized DIP chip on the stage, this technique is going to fail just as badly as light field imaging, because the light is still coming from underneath (just slightly off-axis), and the PCB/chip will still completely block the light.
B. Episcopic or (Epi-) illumination, whereby light is actually sent through the objective itself onto the sample, from above. This obviously puts even more strenuous demands on the objective than dark field imaging, and requires some crazy smarts inside the telescope tube. Can be used with or without polarization, just like the other two methods above.

Fortunately the AMScope has Epi illumination. Not sure what the deal is with the Leitz Ergolux, can't tell from the specs whether it supports Epi.

So again, what's the full story behind those two images? I just don't understand how one can be conventional brightfield, unless I'm missing something. I'm wondering if they're both epi, but the colourful one is phase/polarization something something. Or maybe one is conventional epi, and the other is darkfield, using a chip that's been cut into a very small piece so that light can bounce off the shiny metal of the objective and back down to the sample. What on earth is epi-brightfield? It's mentioned in your link, and seemingly nowhere else on the internet. Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me. Bernice, please correct me! I want to be sure I'm understanding this correctly.
</Massive grain of salt>
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 10:01:39 am by rs20 »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2015, 10:41:03 am »
Stereo Zoom with a Photo tube. These offer up to a few 100X with reasonable image quality. The main features to stereo zoom microscopes is depth perception and objective to subject distance.

I have no need for depth perception. The goal is to shoot video and that's basically it.
A monocular coaxial one I posted originally would be fine.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2015, 10:42:57 am »
The Amscope does not appear to have precision x-y movement stage, just up -down for focus). Then the Amscope has a problem, a real problem.

I posed the specs which seems to imply it does have x-y stage controls. Whether they are precision verier or not I don't know.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2015, 10:48:00 am »
Or is that chip completely de-potted, and are chips actually transparent once you've removed all the plastic? <question invalid if my understanding is incorrect>Is Dave planning to de-pot things to that extent?</question>

Nope. I have no need for a bottom light source that I can foresee.

Quote
Furthermore, one has to be cautious with the term "dark field" imaging, because it can refer to two different things:

I'm also somewhat confused by this.
With the Ergolux  for example, what is that joystick type control on the light that is presumably in series with the light source at the back?
Rupunzel talks about objective that support darkfield and lightfield, if so how does that work inside the objective lens? and do you simply change the objective lens and bingo you go from darkfield to lightfield?
Any other light controls on the Ergolux that do other stuff?

 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2015, 10:52:48 am »
Fortunately the AMScope has Epi illumination. Not sure what the deal is with the Leitz Ergolux, can't tell from the specs whether it supports Epi.

I assumed the Ergolux does because the light is at the back that goes into the main tube above the objective?
The Amscope one also comes with various filters etc and certainly does have light coming through the objective as you say, which seems to go under severnal names, not just Epi?
This is why I'm almost 100% confident the Amscope will do what I want, at least in terms of actual usable image. The only unknown is the actual image quality and the x-y stage movement precision (ebay listing mentions 0.1mm/div?).
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2015, 11:01:31 am »
This Amscope ones comes with both top and bottom light sources.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/40x-2000x-Trinocular-Polarizing-Metallurgical-Microscope-w-T-B-Lights-/381186828518
I'm not sure why it lists 5 "metallurgical magnification", plus 5 "polarising magnifications", plus 7 "transmitted application settings"
What the deal with all those?
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Best microscope for wafer viewing
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2015, 11:07:21 am »
This Amscope ones comes with both top and bottom light sources.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/40x-2000x-Trinocular-Polarizing-Metallurgical-Microscope-w-T-B-Lights-/381186828518
I'm not sure why it lists 5 "metallurgical magnification", plus 5 "polarising magnifications", plus 7 "transmitted application settings"
What the deal with all those?
Different permutations of objectives and eyepieces I think -  says it comes with 2 sets of eyepieces
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