Author Topic: Betelgeuse the star  (Read 4782 times)

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Online thinkfat

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2020, 11:31:57 pm »
Sounds like a good plan.
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2020, 06:14:49 am »
Now you guys have done it. I'm gonna have to drag all my old Niven books out of storage and read 'em again.
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2020, 03:10:12 am »
It would be great if it explodes next weeks. I always wanted to see exploding supernova..  8)

I was reading up on red giant stellar evolution and it should do a lot more than dim before it goes supernova.

I seem to remember that in "Ringworld: Engineers" it was found that the Ringworld was unstable because natives stupidly dismantled the attitude jets on the rim walls, throwing the Protectors into a frenzy to save the remaining inhabitants.

I do not think it was ever made clear why the resident goul protector, Cronus, allowed the City Builders to steal the rimwall attitude jets.  I assume it was Cronus because Halrloprillalar said she was not familiar with Fist of God which was formed soon after Cronus was killed by the vampire Protectors Bran and Anne.  So Prill's people were stealing the attitude jets before that point.

Bran and Anne did not fix the situation even when the Ringworld started sliding off center but since they were non-sentient as breeders, they were not the brightest of Protectors although apparently bright enough not to be trapped or killed by Teela Brown who suspected or knew at least of Bran's existence in the Repair Center.
 

Online Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2020, 11:24:06 pm »
Now you guys have done it. I'm gonna have to drag all my old Niven books out of storage and read 'em again.

You know, I find A Gift From Earth enjoyable. World of Ptaavs is also a nice one.

My favorite stand-alonish novel is Protector.

I like his early stuff. Quick, fun, to the point, done.
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Offline Rick Law

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2020, 04:29:29 am »
Don't worry about Betelgeuse.  With just 60 Starlink satellites launched, they are already causing huge problems for astronomers.  When SpaceX finish lauching 30,000 Starlink satellites, whether Betelgeuse is there or not, you will hardly ever see it or any other stars again.

For some reason, their construction made the satellites very reflective, so it is leaving huge light streaks (on photos) as they travel.  Their brightness is over-powering bright stars let alone dimmer ones.  The problem was identified after the first couple of launches (reference 3), yet by now there are about 60 up there with the same problem...

Attached is a photo (from reference#1) of how these damn satellite-streak looks with mere 60 sats.  Multiply that by 500 (for 30,000 satellites), you can see and how disruptive they are to the view of the sky even for mere star watchers let alone astronomers.

Reference:

1. KXAN (Austin, TX) NBC News: What was that streak of light across the night sky?  (source of the attached photo)
https://www.kxan.com/weather/weather-blog/what-was-that-streak-of-light-across-the-night-sky/ 

2. Space Flight Now: Documents suggest SpaceX may launch 30,000 more Starlink satellites
https://spaceflightnow.com/2019/10/15/documents-suggest-spacex-may-launch-30000-more-starlink-satellites/

3. Phy.Org: Astronomers say SpaceX's satellites are too bright in the sky. Friday's launch will try to fix that
https://phys.org/news/2020-01-astronomers-spacex-satellites-bright-sky.html
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2020, 04:39:09 am »
Now you guys have done it. I'm gonna have to drag all my old Niven books out of storage and read 'em again.

You know, I find A Gift From Earth enjoyable. World of Ptaavs is also a nice one.

My favorite stand-alonish novel is Protector.

I like his early stuff. Quick, fun, to the point, done.

I always thought Protector would make an excellent movie but it would take a good music composer.  It could start with a pull out from Phssthpok's eye as he watches his fusion flame and end with a pull out from Truesdale's eye as he composes his letter to Earth.

You might like the non-canon follow up stories to Protector by Matthew Joseph Harrington in the later Man-Kzin war books.  I think they make more sense than Niven's Ringworld prequels as far as the Pak and they tie up many Known Space plot lines.  Niven never said what ultimately happened to Roy Truesdale and the Home Protectors.

The Man-Kzin novel Destiny's Forge by Paul Chafe is excellent if you can put up with a retelling of the plot from Dune.
 

Online Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2020, 05:12:16 pm »
A World Out f Time would be good too.

For Protector, you'd need to expose the entire back-story of what a Protector is, the relationship to humans, how single-minded and smart and quick and strong they are, why they need Tree Of Life, why they'd come here sub-light, and what kind of havoc they would wreak.

World of Ptaavs relies on 1960s-1970s fascination with ESP which would not work well today.
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2020, 11:50:02 pm »
For Protector, you'd need to expose the entire back-story of what a Protector is, the relationship to humans, how single-minded and smart and quick and strong they are, why they need Tree Of Life, why they'd come here sub-light, and what kind of havoc they would wreak.

Conveniently the story already includes that in Phssthpok's flashbacks.  Later Truesdale discusses it with Nick and Garner although Truesdale was an unreliable narrator from the start.  Not everything has to be explained, just enough.

The whole plot just does not work at least if only canon Known Space stories are included but that is no worse than practically all Hollywood science fiction.  The original assumption about humans not being native to Earth is just wrong.  The Protector stories by Matthew Joseph Harrington that I mentioned earlier address this directly which is why I prefer them as an alternative.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2020, 12:14:46 am »
Betelgeuse is in its helium burning stage so its core is very hot and small which is why the outer envelope is so large.  There is every reason to expect it to become a supernova and produce a neutron star in the next 100,000 years at the soonest but consider that that is 50 times longer than recorded history so do not hold your breath waiting for it.

Jupiter is not even large enough to be a brown dwarf which can be distinguished by lack of lithium which gets fused in a significantly larger gas giant.
Interestingly Jupiter is roughly as big as planets get. They can get heavier but compress that mass into similar or smaller spaces until they become a brown dwarf or star. There are larger planets but these hot Jupiters tend to be very close to their stars and are consequently hot and have swollen to very low densities.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 12:31:39 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2020, 01:08:28 am »
Betelgeuse is in its helium burning stage so its core is very hot and small which is why the outer envelope is so large.  There is every reason to expect it to become a supernova and produce a neutron star in the next 100,000 years at the soonest but consider that that is 50 times longer than recorded history so do not hold your breath waiting for it.

Jupiter is not even large enough to be a brown dwarf which can be distinguished by lack of lithium which gets fused in a significantly larger gas giant.

Interestingly Jupiter is roughly as big as planets get. They can get heavier but compress that mass into similar or smaller spaces until they become a brown dwarf or star. There are larger planets but these hot Jupiters tend to be very close to their stars and are consequently hot and have swollen to very low densities.

Just going by memory, the distinction between gas giants and brown dwarfs is whether enough mass is present allow the fusion of residual lithium from the time of formation.  So Jupiter has lithium present and a brown dwarf, which will have more mass, does not because the lithium was used up in fusion which has since stopped because the mass is not enough to fuse hydrogen.

 

Offline krupski

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Re:Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2020, 07:22:05 am »
Let's just hope it's ejection beam isn't pointed directly at us. :-)  Is there any way to figure out the rotation axis of that star, or any distant star for that matter? Star Wars Death Star planet-killer comes to mind.

Betelgeuse rotational axis is about 20 degrees off pointing directly at us. Of course we don't know what kind of gyrations it may make as it's collapsing.

Whats very interesting is that Betelgeuse has recently dimmed significantly. Occlusion by dust, or ready to blow?

We'll know when there is a blazing bright spot in Orion, that fades away over the course of a few months.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 07:24:32 am by krupski »
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Online Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2020, 12:12:47 am »
The Man-Kzin novel Destiny's Forge by Paul Chafe is excellent if you can put up with a retelling of the plot from Dune.

One author I like is Donald Kingsbury. Dude can write. He played around in the Foundation universe (unauthorized) with the book Psychohistorical Crisis. It's great! He also tooled around in Known Space.
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2020, 03:46:11 am »
Has anyone else read Edward T Yeatts III's Lords of Kobol series, a free fan prequel/background to Battlestar Galactica and Caprica?  I found them entertaining.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2020, 08:15:06 am »
I refuse to go outside and look. Maybe there was a star maybe there was no star to begin with. Not my business. I keep my hands clean of politics. I do believe there should be a compensation for the energy lost however, based on all the decisions and calculations that occurred with the idea that the star had existed, in order to keep deals in a favorable light.

This has an quality effect on solar power manufacturers and gravitational lensing systems capabilities.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 08:22:41 am by coppercone2 »
 

Online RoGeorge

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2020, 07:33:27 am »

Offline jaromir

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2020, 09:13:28 am »
Majority of people are worried about Betelgeuse, astronomers are rejoicing the extended holidays, because usually you can't directly observe variable star going so much variable in such a detail.

For anyone interested in visualizing some measured data:
1, AAVSO (American Association of Variable Star Observers - https://www.aavso.org/ ) does have tool to plot light curves, in particular for Betelgeuse it looks like this
https://www.aavso.org/lcg/plot?auid=000-BBK-383&starname=BETELGEUSE&lastdays=200&start=&stop=2458896.87343&obscode=&obscode_symbol=2&obstotals=yes&calendar=calendar&forcetics=&pointsize=1&width=800&height=450&mag1=&mag2=&mean=&vmean=&grid=on&visual=on&uband=on&bband=on&v=on

2, Amateur astronomer Michael Hippke created twitter bot to pull data from AAVSO sources, process and post updates. It's open source, available here https://github.com/hippke/betelbot ; live version on twitter is here https://twitter.com/betelbot
 

Offline paulca

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2020, 01:14:16 pm »
You have to say his name three times didn't you?

"What could possibly go wrong?"
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Offline coppercone2

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2020, 11:18:29 pm »
Don't worry about Betelgeuse.  With just 60 Starlink satellites launched, they are already causing huge problems for astronomers.  When SpaceX finish lauching 30,000 Starlink satellites, whether Betelgeuse is there or not, you will hardly ever see it or any other stars again.

For some reason, their construction made the satellites very reflective, so it is leaving huge light streaks (on photos) as they travel.  Their brightness is over-powering bright stars let alone dimmer ones.  The problem was identified after the first couple of launches (reference 3), yet by now there are about 60 up there with the same problem...

Attached is a photo (from reference#1) of how these damn satellite-streak looks with mere 60 sats.  Multiply that by 500 (for 30,000 satellites), you can see and how disruptive they are to the view of the sky even for mere star watchers let alone astronomers.

Reference:

1. KXAN (Austin, TX) NBC News: What was that streak of light across the night sky?  (source of the attached photo)
https://www.kxan.com/weather/weather-blog/what-was-that-streak-of-light-across-the-night-sky/ 

2. Space Flight Now: Documents suggest SpaceX may launch 30,000 more Starlink satellites
https://spaceflightnow.com/2019/10/15/documents-suggest-spacex-may-launch-30000-more-starlink-satellites/

3. Phy.Org: Astronomers say SpaceX's satellites are too bright in the sky. Friday's launch will try to fix that
https://phys.org/news/2020-01-astronomers-spacex-satellites-bright-sky.html

i knew I saw a problem when they said 'low cost design' and 'aerospace' in the same posting on their job website lol
 

Online RoGeorge

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2020, 08:20:25 am »
Huge nice Orion pic:


Same source:  Astronomy Picture of the Day.
Hover the mouse over the pic for annotations.
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

Offline BU508A

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2020, 11:56:07 am »
The VLT in Chile has made some nice pictures as well:



https://phys.org/news/2020-02-eso-telescope-surface-dim-betelgeuse.html
“Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.”            - Terry Pratchett -
 

Offline BU508A

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2020, 12:30:46 pm »
New findings about Betelgeuse:



Source:
http://www.goominet.com/unspeakable-vault/
“Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.”            - Terry Pratchett -
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2020, 01:45:08 pm »
My first thought was "It's winking", too.

As an aside, the two images of Betelgeuse are really good examples of an issue I've struggled with a lot: controlling the information content in a visualization image.

We do not actually know what the true resolution of the imaging machinery are with relation to the image dimensions.  The image we see could very well be reconstructed from data from as few as 25 separate imaging sensors ("pixels"), but smoothed out and "prettified" (filtered with a low-pass filter) so it doesn't just look like 25 squares of slightly different colors.  There is a huge risk of accidentally doing a computer-assisted Face on Mars; but instead of light and shadow playing a trick on the viewer, the added interpolation/smoothing/filtering done to the digital data does it.

(In my case, the problem is that when visualizing molecules or atomic systems, displaying them as shiny spheres with perhaps sticks between them to illustrate bonds, gives completely wrong intuitive picture.  Atoms do not have clear boundaries at that scale, and when bonded, most definitely do not stay spherical.  So, using "less fidelity", or just non-photorealistic renderings like something from the graphics artists' toolbox, one can avoid causing such mis-conceptions and mis-intuitions by controlling the information conveyed [by adding non-realism!].  At the atomic level, especially when you have lattices (perhaps a metal), small clusters, and individual atoms, just defining exactly what constitutes a collision and how energy or momentum is exchanged, is hard.  They don't bounce off each other like people in a mosh pit, or pool balls, but tend to do pirouettes around each other like classical dancers.)
 


Online RoGeorge

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2020, 12:33:46 pm »

Online Gyro

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Re: Betelgeuse the star
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2020, 10:34:41 pm »
Damn, I was hoping to live long enough to see the fireworks!  :(
Regards, Chris

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