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| BEWARE of fake EEVblog NFT's |
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| NiHaoMike:
--- Quote from: EEVblog on January 18, 2022, 02:04:07 am ---Hypothetical future: Say you support a creator on Patreon or some other platform, you get an NFT "badge" that shows you financially supported that creator. --- End quote --- That would be a big step closer towards my idea of "supporting the supporters". For example, in a P2P system, supporters of certain content creators get priority downloads of certain content, thus adding to the value of supporting those creators. Then it's a matter of creating a scheme for the client to "prove" they supported, likely pretty easy using public key encryption. --- Quote from: tszaboo on January 20, 2022, 01:23:38 am ---Well, this is just the general confusion about what NFTs are. You see, most NFTs sold today is not the underlying picture. It is also not the artwork, or even the ownership of the artwork. Most NFTs that are sold today is just a link to some picture, that is hosted on some server. The image is not even stored on the blockchain. And it happens often times, that the picture gets changed, after selling the NFT (for example to a poop emoji). There are a few NFTs that are legit stored on a blockchain, but those are simplistic, often times then need some third party tool to actually generate the picture for it. And IMHO the artistic value of these generated "yellow monkey holding a blue banana with a hat" NFTs is zero. --- End quote --- Sounds like something that can be solved by having the NFTs use links to a P2P system like Bittorrent or IPFS. --- Quote from: nctnico on January 20, 2022, 12:57:18 pm ---There are two seperate things here: 1) energy wasted due to mining cryptocurrencies which is just insane (*). 2) energy wasted due to inefficient distributed ledgers (block chain). That is a problem that needs to be solved because distributed ledger is a useful technology. Actually, a specification for bidirectional EV - grid charging (https://www.smart-energy.com/industry-sectors/new-technology/first-blockchain-based-ev-grid-integration-standard-released/) is using distributed ledger technology to make the system more robust and increase availability. --- End quote --- What's energy inefficient about blockchains other than that many of them use a lot of energy to mine? There have been quite a few attempts to make cryptocurrencies that use much less energy for mining, we just need at least one to become successful in the long run. |
| nctnico:
--- Quote from: NiHaoMike on January 20, 2022, 01:30:56 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on January 20, 2022, 12:57:18 pm ---There are two seperate things here: 1) energy wasted due to mining cryptocurrencies which is just insane (*). 2) energy wasted due to inefficient distributed ledgers (block chain). That is a problem that needs to be solved because distributed ledger is a useful technology. Actually, a specification for bidirectional EV - grid charging (https://www.smart-energy.com/industry-sectors/new-technology/first-blockchain-based-ev-grid-integration-standard-released/) is using distributed ledger technology to make the system more robust and increase availability. --- End quote --- What's energy inefficient about blockchains other than that many of them use a lot of energy to mine? There have been quite a few attempts to make cryptocurrencies that use much less energy for mining, we just need at least one to become successful in the long run. --- End quote --- The first step you need to make is to differentiate between the distributed ledger and (mining) cryptocurrency. Those are 2 seperate things! Secondly, a distributed ledger which duplicates data across all nodes in a network uses way too much resources in the form of storage space, network traffic and computational power. I don't have the answer to solve that; it is just an observation that it is a big problem. From what I understand 1 Bitcoin transaction wastes several kWh of energy. |
| NiHaoMike:
--- Quote from: nctnico on January 20, 2022, 03:52:36 pm ---Secondly, a distributed ledger which duplicates data across all nodes in a network uses way too much resources in the form of storage space, network traffic and computational power. I don't have the answer to solve that; it is just an observation that it is a big problem. From what I understand 1 Bitcoin transaction wastes several kWh of energy. --- End quote --- Almost all of the energy used is for mining. Solve that and the efficiency goes way up. Storage space is becoming less of a problem as storage becomes cheaper, plus there are mechanisms to "archive" old blocks and keep storage requirements very modest. It could even be possible to keep copies of some old blocks based on how many copies of such blocks currently exist on the network, although I'm not sure if any blockchains currently do that. (Or perhaps it can be designed so that miners have to keep a full copy of the blockchain but mere users only need to retain the most recent 50GB or so?) Network traffic and computational power for things other than mining is not a problem, a simple Raspberry Pi can easily run a Bitcoin "full node". |
| nctnico:
--- Quote from: NiHaoMike on January 20, 2022, 11:26:32 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on January 20, 2022, 03:52:36 pm ---Secondly, a distributed ledger which duplicates data across all nodes in a network uses way too much resources in the form of storage space, network traffic and computational power. I don't have the answer to solve that; it is just an observation that it is a big problem. From what I understand 1 Bitcoin transaction wastes several kWh of energy. --- End quote --- Almost all of the energy used is for mining. Solve that and the efficiency goes way up. Storage space is becoming less of a problem as storage becomes cheaper, plus there are mechanisms to "archive" old blocks and keep storage requirements very modest. It could even be possible to keep copies of some old blocks based on how many copies of such blocks currently exist on the network, although I'm not sure if any blockchains currently do that. (Or perhaps it can be designed so that miners have to keep a full copy of the blockchain but mere users only need to retain the most recent 50GB or so?) Network traffic and computational power for things other than mining is not a problem, a simple Raspberry Pi can easily run a Bitcoin "full node". --- End quote --- Yes, but a billion Bitcoin nodes which store the same data adds up to a huge amount of wasted energy. It doesn't matter if there is something far worse in the world. At some point a distributed ledger needs to have 'supernodes' that have all the data and sub-nodes that store less data and fetch that from the super nodes. Probably peer-to-peer networking technology helps. But again, this is just me thinking out loud. |
| NiHaoMike:
--- Quote from: nctnico on January 20, 2022, 11:33:41 pm ---At some point a distributed ledger needs to have 'supernodes' that have all the data and sub-nodes that store less data and fetch that from the super nodes. Probably peer-to-peer networking technology helps. But again, this is just me thinking out loud. --- End quote --- That's basically what I proposed? Some nodes store everything, others only store the "hot" part of the blockchain that's in active use. Requiring the miners to have a complete copy would help ensure that the whole blockchain always remains available. The interesting part is that many of the "energy efficient" altcoins are not at all bandwidth efficient, in particular earnhoney is pretty bandwidth intensive. It's far more common to have flat rate bandwidth at home than it is to have flat rate electricity at home, so it works out nicely. (Would be interesting to work out the environmental impact of the bandwidth use but it's almost certainly orders of magnitude lower than using a lot of energy instead.) IT managers trying to make mining clusters from the office computers they manage, however, would end up with a large degradation in network performance, and then there's the residential IP whitelist they somehow have to get past first. Point is, it takes far less bandwidth to run a Bitcoin full node than it does to mine some energy efficient altcoins like earnhoney or Swagbucks. (Or at least that was the case - the current fork of Swagbucks is a lot more bandwidth efficient, but sadly increase in difficulty has made it far less energy efficient.) |
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