Author Topic: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise  (Read 4567 times)

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Online Psi

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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2023, 03:46:15 am »
If you paid for product(s) with free delivery, there is no defensible way they can "add" imaginary value to the shipment. 

Yes, there is.
The value of the shipment is the value of the goods plus the value of the shipping (in some countries).
But more importantly, the value is usually defined something like "the fair market value"
Therefore, if you didn't pay the shipping (free shipping) then you got a discount, but that doesn't effect the value of the shipment.

They do it this way because they need to be able to inspect the goods and check if the value is legit.
If for example you buy something with a 70% discount (and only paid 30% of the value of the item) the customs value of the shipment is still the full value not the discounted value.

If the customs value was the value you paid then it would incentives fake invoices showing a discount to reduce import fees and import customs dept wouldn't be able to know by looking at the item if it was a totally legit discount or a fake discount.  So they have the rule that the customs value of a shipped item is the fair market value of the item, not the discounted value.  It makes it simple to check if the declared value makes sense just by looking at an item and searching to see how much its normally worth.


So, the real question is, is free shipping a discount or did you just pay for the shipping a different way, as part of the value of the items.
In which case you didn't get a discount and the fair market value of the item is what you paid and nothing else should be added.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 03:49:18 am by Psi »
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Online thm_w

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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2023, 09:55:28 pm »
Did you pay the shipping cost as something incorporated into the cost of all the goods you bought. (You could argue the seller will be making their goods more expensive to cover free shipping)
Digikey also marks up for foreign destinations (fill a cart in USD to a US address, then do another in USD to a non US address) so "free" shipping is a marketing thing and the prices most certainly are increased to cover the costs.

Yeah, general shipping, but also can include duties, customs clearance, and currency conversions.
Example part is 10.20 USD on .com or 15.86 CAD on .ca, roughly a 16% increase in price. Just wildly guessing the average order might be $140, so ~$22 markup.
For example digikey are not offering DDP terms to Australia unlike say mouser, so clearance and duties/taxes are all paid by the recipient to the courier. Currency conversion is a non-starter too as that cost is paid by the customer (digikey receiving USD). So any markup is for international drama/support and most of all; shipping.

Why are you saying "currency conversion is a non-starter". On the AUD site don't you pay in AUD? At least thats what I see if I add an item to the cart.
I pay in CAD on the CAD site.

It looks like the AUD markup is a lot lower, ~6%, so it makes some sense that less services are supplied.
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Online Someone

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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2023, 10:21:45 pm »
Did you pay the shipping cost as something incorporated into the cost of all the goods you bought. (You could argue the seller will be making their goods more expensive to cover free shipping)
Digikey also marks up for foreign destinations (fill a cart in USD to a US address, then do another in USD to a non US address) so "free" shipping is a marketing thing and the prices most certainly are increased to cover the costs.
Yeah, general shipping, but also can include duties, customs clearance, and currency conversions.
Example part is 10.20 USD on .com or 15.86 CAD on .ca, roughly a 16% increase in price. Just wildly guessing the average order might be $140, so ~$22 markup.
For example digikey are not offering DDP terms to Australia unlike say mouser, so clearance and duties/taxes are all paid by the recipient to the courier. Currency conversion is a non-starter too as that cost is paid by the customer (digikey receiving USD). So any markup is for international drama/support and most of all; shipping.
Why are you saying "currency conversion is a non-starter". On the AUD site don't you pay in AUD? At least thats what I see if I add an item to the cart.
I pay in CAD on the CAD site.

It looks like the AUD markup is a lot lower, ~6%, so it makes some sense that less services are supplied.
The markup on currency conversion/risk is another variable, but digikey let most (all?) regions pay in USD (as do Mouser etc). I pointed out the example people can try, by building a cart in the same USD, but to different locales. The additional "international" margin on digikey for Australia seems to be a few % just for postage (invoicing appears to be identical to US domestic orders, but there may be an electronic lodgement through the carrier).

If you pay CAD on the Canadian site you are probably adding in another few % in their fees. Example:

US/USD 242.04
CA/USD 242.04
CA/CAD 356.88 (266.59 USD)
AU/USD 251.76
AU/AUD 372.48 (257.55 USD)

currency conversions above are live/actual at current transaction rate with reasonable network/broker. No idea why the CAD pricing has such a large difference that does not line up with a tax rate [edit, but it was tax as the difference CPT vs DDP].
« Last Edit: January 10, 2023, 09:33:56 am by Someone »
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2023, 07:53:54 am »
Be careful when ordering from vendors that offer payment in different currencies: it may affect incoterms! For example, there are/were various countries where Digi-Key ships with DDP incoterms when paying in the local currency, but CPT when paying in USD. In many cases, it also depends on which shipping carrier you choose. Same with Mouser.
 
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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2023, 09:33:09 am »
Be careful when ordering from vendors that offer payment in different currencies: it may affect incoterms! For example, there are/were various countries where Digi-Key ships with DDP incoterms when paying in the local currency, but CPT when paying in USD. In many cases, it also depends on which shipping carrier you choose. Same with Mouser.
Looks like the Canada example above is digikey changing between CPT and DDP (not as obviously shown as Mouser).
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2023, 10:05:24 am »
What do you mean? I think Digi-Key shows it more prominently than Mouser.
 

Offline Terry Bites

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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2023, 04:12:17 pm »
Yep, I've been Fu***d over by fedex buying from PCB way.
Way more than double the package value.
I hate them nearly as much as DHL. (OK, not as badly)

They think they're a branch of governement and can arbitrarily slap on uncalculated random duty and VAT.
Not just VAT on the goods but the postage as well. Between EU and UK they are hitting both sender and reciever for VAT on postage.
Thats got to be a crime? (But not as criminal as brexit).
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2023, 04:38:12 pm »
They think they're a branch of governement and can arbitrarily slap on uncalculated random duty and VAT.
They can only release containers of imported stuff once duty is paid. if no accurate invoices or data is avaialble they slap on enough value so it will pass the duty inspectors scrutiny. They are working against time. The duty officrs job is to line the governments pockets.

Go growl at your government that wants to milk anything you do. You make money ? tax !. you want to spend money on a car ? tax again! ah, you want to drive it too ? road tax ! Wait , you need fuel ? taaaax !  you have a garage to store it ? taaaaaaaaaaax ! It produces exhaust ... tax ! Let's mkae registration mandatory and issue licence plates : tax !

Somewhere in a government back room there are people brainstorming what next to tax. You are collecting the rain that falls on your roof ? tax ! because it means you will use less city water so they lose the tax income. Soon they will make rain illegal.

We are evolving to a future where they measure the amoun of oxygen you breath and the co2 (and methane on the other end) you produce. they will also measure the food you eat and the amount of boom-boom you produce. They will tax you according to what you eat and in what quantity. Oh you are sick ? diabetes ? too many sodas. you drank 409 gallon in your lifetime. So we won;t help you. our health system is overloaded and you got it by your own fault. should not have drank that much soda. and all that carbonated stuff ... every time you burped you added more co2 to the environment... here's your tax bill.

If the politicians want money they should get a job just like anyone else instead of milking us.
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Offline MadScientist

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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2023, 04:47:32 pm »
 :-+Within the EU VAT law is entirely harmonised and is the same across the EU

Free postage from outside the eu never includes customs duty or vat as thd supplier cannot determine in advance what the clearance costs will be. Mouser is very unusual in this ss they do groupage bulk clearance ( is they do not import the orders into the eu seperately) hence they swallow that cost on a total consignment basis which is far better

Since postage /courier is vatable then the Delivery must charge you vat on the goods and any associated services such as delivery otherwise foreign delivery agents would have an unfair advantage over domestic delivery agents who must legally charge vat for their services

It’s not complex , just suck it up

I have a EORI number which you can get as a person , fedex re Jesse the shipment against that number and invoice me seperateky for duty and it vat after I have already received the shipment

If you do t have a EORI number they will typically demand advance payment

EORI has nothing to do to vat registration. Which by the way is also available to individuals if you want tk go down that road and you can reclaim thd vat

It’s clear from the  replies here that somepeople simply don’t understand vat

Sadly customs clearance fees are unregulated and I find fedex one of the worse but if you email them they can tell you the typical schedule of customs  clearance charges. These Are not mostly levied by fedex but the countries official custom clearance process. FedEx just pass it on.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2023, 04:59:07 pm by MadScientist »
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Offline MadScientist

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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2023, 05:04:22 pm »
They think they're a branch of governement and can arbitrarily slap on uncalculated random duty and VAT.
They can only release containers of imported stuff once duty is paid. if no accurate invoices or data is avaialble they slap on enough value so it will pass the duty inspectors scrutiny. They are working against time. The duty officrs job is to line the governments pockets.

Go growl at your government that wants to milk anything you do. You make money ? tax !. you want to spend money on a car ? tax again! ah, you want to drive it too ? road tax ! Wait , you need fuel ? taaaax !  you have a garage to store it ? taaaaaaaaaaax ! It produces exhaust ... tax ! Let's mkae registration mandatory and issue licence plates : tax !

Somewhere in a government back room there are people brainstorming what next to tax. You are collecting the rain that falls on your roof ? tax ! because it means you will use less city water so they lose the tax income. Soon they will make rain illegal.

We are evolving to a future where they measure the amoun of oxygen you breath and the co2 (and methane on the other end) you produce. they will also measure the food you eat and the amount of boom-boom you produce. They will tax you according to what you eat and in what quantity. Oh you are sick ? diabetes ? too many sodas. you drank 409 gallon in your lifetime. So we won;t help you. our health system is overloaded and you got it by your own fault. should not have drank that much soda. and all that carbonated stuff ... every time you burped you added more co2 to the environment... here's your tax bill.

If the politicians want money they should get a job just like anyone else instead of milking us.

Customs is as old as julius Caesar !!  It’s a fact of life
Theirs is no evidence to back up 99% of the non sense you write. Health agencies will treat ill people irrespective

Tax is a good things it’s supports education health , infrastructure etc. be happy you clearly have the income to pay it.

Either that or li d on a deserted island I’m sure FedEx “ might” find you ( eventually )

To add to your BS , there are many ways you can arrange release of goods and post pay duties and or vat. Clearly you have no idea how the system works
« Last Edit: January 13, 2023, 05:06:48 pm by MadScientist »
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Offline tooki

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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2023, 05:31:12 pm »
Free postage from outside the eu never includes customs duty or vat as thd supplier cannot determine in advance what the clearance costs will be. Mouser is very unusual in this ss they do groupage bulk clearance ( is they do not import the orders into the eu seperately) hence they swallow that cost on a total consignment basis which is far better
Mouser is far from alone in doing that, because it’s not unknowable. I’m sure it’s anything but trivial to set up, but it is doable. Then it’s shipped precleared so that the carrier does not have to collect any VAT or duty.
 

Online thm_w

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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2023, 10:29:34 pm »
They think they're a branch of governement and can arbitrarily slap on uncalculated random duty and VAT.
Not just VAT on the goods but the postage as well. Between EU and UK they are hitting both sender and reciever for VAT on postage.
Thats got to be a crime? (But not as criminal as brexit).

- There is a way to contest the value for royal mail, there may be a similar process for fedex: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1108962/BOR286-English-09-22.pdf
- As Madscientist and I have previously noted, you can declare your own value and clear customs yourself, but it may be a fair amount of effort.
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Offline MadScientist

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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2023, 12:53:15 pm »
Free postage from outside the eu never includes customs duty or vat as thd supplier cannot determine in advance what the clearance costs will be. Mouser is very unusual in this ss they do groupage bulk clearance ( is they do not import the orders into the eu seperately) hence they swallow that cost on a total consignment basis which is far better
Mouser is far from alone in doing that, because it’s not unknowable. I’m sure it’s anything but trivial to set up, but it is doable. Then it’s shipped precleared so that the carrier does not have to collect any VAT or duty.

Actually while not that diffult the rules for DDP are quite restrictive and anyway only apply upto €135. After that you are forced to post clear.

In order to do what mouser are doing you must have a financial entity registered in the eU hence for small foreign suppliers ddp or mouser style groupage simply isn’t legally possible.  In fact the costs are are such that you need a big foreign import activity to justify it ( if you have substantial EU source and supply it doesn’t work )

Hence it’s not a catch all solution nor is ddp.
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Offline MadScientist

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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2023, 12:56:41 pm »
They think they're a branch of governement and can arbitrarily slap on uncalculated random duty and VAT.
Not just VAT on the goods but the postage as well. Between EU and UK they are hitting both sender and reciever for VAT on postage.
Thats got to be a crime? (But not as criminal as brexit).

- There is a way to contest the value for royal mail, there may be a similar process for fedex: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1108962/BOR286-English-09-22.pdf
- As Madscientist and I have previously noted, you can declare your own value and clear customs yourself, but it may be a fair amount of effort.

The very best way is to have a tiny trade ( ie I sell a few pcbs to friends ) hence I registered for vat. Since I mainly sell into the uk , I only have vat reclaim activity , every two months the gov sends me a nice bank transfer 7 days after my online vat return , the gov drops the vat into my bank account !!

The online vat return takes me 10-15 minutes every 8 weeks easy stuff. I can reclaim all  vat against the business costs. ( test gear , lab costs etc )

I do this as a sole trader so reporting requirements are easy
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 01:01:19 pm by MadScientist »
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Offline MadScientist

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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2023, 01:15:45 pm »
Yep, I've been Fu***d over by fedex buying from PCB way.
Way more than double the package value.
I hate them nearly as much as DHL. (OK, not as badly)

They think they're a branch of governement and can arbitrarily slap on uncalculated random duty and VAT.
Not just VAT on the goods but the postage as well. Between EU and UK they are hitting both sender and reciever for VAT on postage.
Thats got to be a crime? (But not as criminal as brexit).

You understand that postage and Courir /shipping is a eu vatable service
 Hence vat must be added to the cost where the shipping originated outside the EU by the eu based final carrier , how is this a “ crime “ it’s the EI wide vat law

FedEx are not a branch oh gov they are legally obliged to recover vat end of story no different  then when you buy a beer you pay the bar vat  and they remit that

So that’s why vat is added to the shipping costs. It’s fully legal and correct

Custom clearance charges however are unregulated and this is certainly an area the EU needs to get involved in , there should be eu wide fixed custom clearance charges for say sub €10000 shipments handles without special clearances procedures
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2023, 04:24:40 pm »
Free postage from outside the eu never includes customs duty or vat as thd supplier cannot determine in advance what the clearance costs will be. Mouser is very unusual in this ss they do groupage bulk clearance ( is they do not import the orders into the eu seperately) hence they swallow that cost on a total consignment basis which is far better
Mouser is far from alone in doing that, because it’s not unknowable. I’m sure it’s anything but trivial to set up, but it is doable. Then it’s shipped precleared so that the carrier does not have to collect any VAT or duty.

Actually while not that diffult the rules for DDP are quite restrictive and anyway only apply upto €135. After that you are forced to post clear.
Citation needed. I can't find any reference to a €135 threshold, just to a GBP135 threshold on parcels entering the UK. But it doesn't have anything to do with DDP as such.

In order to do what mouser are doing you must have a financial entity registered in the eU hence for small foreign suppliers ddp or mouser style groupage simply isn’t legally possible.  In fact the costs are are such that you need a big foreign import activity to justify it ( if you have substantial EU source and supply it doesn’t work )

Hence it’s not a catch all solution nor is ddp.
What's the "it" you're talking about here, if not DDP?


As I understand it, DDP is the solution. How DDP must be handled between country pairs varies (so a seller has to figure this out), but the result is that if done as DDP, the buyer owes nothing and doesn't need to worry about it. If the buyer ends up owing something, then it wasn't DDP.
 

Offline MadScientist

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Re: Beware when orderimg from ST.com - nasty surprise
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2023, 09:19:39 pm »
Yeah unfortunately we have to deal with this crap when importing stuff into Europe.

None of this is STs fault. It is the local government enforcing import tax and then shipping carriers using it as an excuse to charge more money.

This is the reason why i love AliExpress shipping options. It costs a bit extra but they somehow magically get the package into the EU and then send it trough the post from there. As a result there is never any import bullshit.

Governments in the EU must recover vat it’s not “ local gov anything “
AliExpress is fine under the DDP limit of 135 euris clearance above that gets pricey depending on the carrier

The only issues  is customs “ clearance “ charges that’s currently unregulated

The Eu is considering raising the DDP LIMIT to €1000, so we’ll see, in addition legal limits to clearance feees should be enacted EU wide in my opinion

There Is nothing magical about Ali or mouser both do groups shipments mouser does it better then AliExpress as they are not limited by the DDP limit whereas AliExpress are
« Last Edit: January 15, 2023, 09:21:47 pm by MadScientist »
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