Author Topic: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks  (Read 18293 times)

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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #125 on: April 07, 2023, 09:30:36 pm »
The last three years has taught me to be very sceptical of "the science" because it's been we've been manipulated and lied to so much by the authorities and mainstream media.
As soon as someone says "the science" its highly unlikely anything further that they say will be of any value. Science is a process, not a thing. Follow the process and you understand more. Follow "the science" and you are being manipulated.

Yep. Exactly.
Well, politicians saying "science" in a sentence: that's almost a guarantee they are yanking your chain. They use it as the new higher authority, just like they used religion when religion still had considerable power. It's never about being closer to provable facts, it's always about power.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #126 on: April 07, 2023, 09:38:57 pm »
The elephant in the room is that there are just far too many of the problem species on the planet.

That species exponential population increase became long term unsustainable many centuries ago. The process is accelerating, and an opportunity for an effective natural cull has just been missed...

Yeah, the planet will be OK ...
You're mistaken. It's not possible to extrapolate current trends so far into the future.

Population *growth* is declining in many countries, even in Africa, with some latency. In a few decades from now, it won't be nearly what it is now, that's almost a guarantee.

And yes, the planet will be OK. It has survived much worse. The question is about us, not about the planet. Are we going to be OK in a few centuries from now? I have no clue.
But is the planet going to be OK? That's for sure. The planet doesn't care about our shit.

We keep saying "the planet" as if to avoid explicitely saying that all we care about is actually us, and it hasn't changed, it's just gotten much worse. We only care about our fricking destiny.
Let's leave "the planet" alone and start being honest. It has never been about anything else than us, and is unlikely to ever be about anything else until it's too late for us.

Claming we care and are going to save "the planet" is just bullshit. We are just trying to save ourselves, and not all of us either. :popcorn:
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #127 on: April 07, 2023, 09:53:05 pm »
Population *growth* is declining in many countries, even in Africa, with some latency. In a few decades from now, it won't be nearly what it is now, that's almost a guarantee.
Its pretty much a guarantee, if you look at examples like China. Their birth rate didn't fall by a change in culture. as in most countries. It was enforced. Many people thought that when the brakes were turned off there would be a pent up demand for parenthood. It hasn't happened. The birth rate there continues to fall, even though the government now encourages larger families. A generation of people who grew up as the only child doesn't seem to see a large family as normal any more. My wife and I have no siblings. We have two children, which is a little below replacement, and it feels like we have a substantial family.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #128 on: April 08, 2023, 07:55:51 am »

I used the term "the science" because it's what politicians have said to justify  authoritarian policies in the past.

Science should involve questioning everything. The problem is it's no longer possible to do that. Plenty of scientists have tried to warn the government their draconian policies would do more harm than good, yet were subject to censorship. Governments put pressure on social media companies to censor things they felt were harmful, under the guise of suppressing misinformation. Politics is no longer separate from science. Universities have become breeding grounds for political activism. Funding is denied to research because it might yield "inconvenient" results.

Quite, you don't mean real science but the claim that a politicians whim is now justified because they claim it is science when it is a cherry picked bunch of facts with a lot of caveats.

In the UK Chris Whitty was rather obviously on a leash and biting his lip, meanwhile people were selling mugs with the slogan that he should be prime minister instead. Of course stupid dogs will always follow the stupid pack they signed up to no matter where it's headed.

The other thing to remember is that a lot of what we see as the new bad is just the same old given more exposure due to the ease of communication and publishing these days. This of itself has generated a rise in people taking stupid decisions because they fear the potential bad exposure.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2023, 06:32:41 pm by Simon »
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #129 on: April 08, 2023, 09:40:02 am »
I used the term "the science" because it's what politicians have said to justify  authoritarian policies in the past.

Science should involve questioning everything. The problem is it's no longer possible to do that. Plenty of scientists have tried to warn the government their draconian policies would do more harm than good, yet were subject to censorship. Governments put pressure on social media companies to censor things they felt were harmful, under the guise of suppressing misinformation. Politics is no longer separate from science. Universities have become breeding grounds for political activism. Funding is denied to research because it might yield "inconvenient" results.

Quite, you don't mean real science but the claim that a politicians whim is now justified because they claim it is science when it is a cherry picked bunch of facts with a lot of caveats.

In the UK Chris Whitty was rather obviously on a leash and biting his lip, meanwhile people were selling mugs with the slogan that he should be prime minister instead. Of course stupid dogs will always follow the stupid pack they signed up to no matter where it's headed.

The other thing to remember is that a lot of what we see as the new bad is just the same old given more exposure due to the ease of communication and publishing these days. This of itself has generated a rise in people taking stupid decisions because they fear the potential bad exposure.

I think this is linked to why people have also become sceptical about "Experts". Let us just wheel out someone who clearly doesn't see daylight often, get them to ask "Next slide please" every few seconds and hopefully people will assume they have all the answers.

During the pandemic, there were quite a few reporters with little else to do other than trying and second guess a lot of the info coming from 10 downing street. This led to lots of experts arguing over stuff much like how people here can argue over any electrical issue, both are wrong and right but it all depends on how deep into the ppb you are willing to go. Social media was full of armchair experts and keyboard warriors and the odd troll or two and information was so hacked up or nit picked over that nothing made much sense.

Going back to the OP thing, if the government doesn't try to encourage people to swap over no one will and eventually there will be some smug person telling them they should have done something earlier. I do find it funny that Americans get so worked up when they are told they can't do something but then are happy to be a nation going back in time when it comes to other subjects which would open a can of politics so I won't mention it.
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Offline Xena E

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #130 on: April 08, 2023, 12:34:23 pm »
The elephant in the room is that there are just far too many of the problem species on the planet.

That species exponential population increase became long term unsustainable many centuries ago. The process is accelerating, and an opportunity for an effective natural cull has just been missed...

Yeah, the planet will be OK ...
You're mistaken. It's not possible to extrapolate current trends so far into the future.

I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear:
I'm not trying to extrapolate what will happen in the future... its already to late IMO.

All that mankind has ever done is find new and more efficient ways to f*ck up. Human impact on the environment can only effectively be controlled by occasional plagues and mass genocides as has happened in the past. Humankind is too successful.

Legislation of governments where ever in the world is solely to control the proletariat and do what's best for themselves.

I personally believe that anyone who promotes themselves and their ideas of how others should live are just screwing over those they brainwash.

I didn't start the fire, I haven't got the answers, I want my slice of the pie, I want to live in relative affluence and comfort. If theres a way within that mantra that I can cause less impact on my surroundings, bring it on.

But if I'm told by some schemer or politico how I have to live my life when they live in greater luxtury and extravagance than I then I get pissed.

There's a chance I may survive another fifty times round the sun if I'm fortunate... then I won't care will I.

The world will be OK without me, is a perfect truth, it will.

I don't see that my or anyone else running a couple of filament lamps over their office desk, workbench and lounge recliner is going to make a sh*ts worth of difference to ecology.  I have a neighbour who bangs on incessantly about this kind of thing, he flew in a rage when I pointed out that changing his (bad) driving style would have more beneficial effect than my saving a couple hundred watts of power for some of my lighting.

The world is run by popular opinion and as is already concluded, popular opinions are usually stupid...
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #131 on: April 08, 2023, 12:40:49 pm »
The elephant in the room is that there are just far too many of the problem species on the planet.

That species exponential population increase became long term unsustainable many centuries ago. The process is accelerating, and an opportunity for an effective natural cull has just been missed...

Yeah, the planet will be OK ...
You're mistaken. It's not possible to extrapolate current trends so far into the future.

Population *growth* is declining in many countries, even in Africa, with some latency. In a few decades from now, it won't be nearly what it is now, that's almost a guarantee.

And yes, the planet will be OK. It has survived much worse. The question is about us, not about the planet. Are we going to be OK in a few centuries from now? I have no clue.
But is the planet going to be OK? That's for sure. The planet doesn't care about our shit.

We keep saying "the planet" as if to avoid explicitely saying that all we care about is actually us, and it hasn't changed, it's just gotten much worse. We only care about our fricking destiny.
Let's leave "the planet" alone and start being honest. It has never been about anything else than us, and is unlikely to ever be about anything else until it's too late for us.

Claming we care and are going to save "the planet" is just bullshit. We are just trying to save ourselves, and not all of us either. :popcorn:

I'm far more worried about direct threats to humans, posed by other humans such as war and bad policies imposed on us by our leaders, than our unintentional impact on the environment, making the world uninhabitable for humans. The fact is rich countries have managed to minimise their environmental impact quite well. Again policies which limit economic growth, will be worse for the environment in the long run because they will keep people poor.

Politics is no longer separate from science.
When has this not been the case? I mean, back when politics and religion were one and the same, they literally murdered, banished, or imprisoned scientists under the guise of “heresy”.

Universities have become breeding grounds for political activism.
Aside from the fact that political activism has always been one aspect of academia, since both academia and politics exist in the same universe, I don’t think there’s actually any evidence to support claims of this being more so now than in the past (as the wording “have become” implies). The only thing I see as having changed is that now a certain segment of the population has their knickers in a twist about it, having been whipped to a froth by disingenuous “news”casters and social media fearmongers.
The difference is now it's skewed to one side of the political spectrum. Academic freedom in countries such as the US and UK has been in severe decline over the last few years. It's a worldwide problem, but the decline in the previously most free countries is the most concerning aspect of this trend.
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/significant-declines-us-and-uk-academic-freedom-ranking
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #132 on: April 08, 2023, 01:21:05 pm »
I don't see that my or anyone else running a couple of filament lamps over their office desk, workbench and lounge recliner is going to make a sh*ts worth of difference to ecology.  I have a neighbour who bangs on incessantly about this kind of thing, he flew in a rage when I pointed out that changing his (bad) driving style would have more beneficial effect than my saving a couple hundred watts of power for some of my lighting.

But it's not about your lighting. It's about your lighting.. and tens of millions of others.

Your stubbornness is merely proof that change on meaningful scale cannot be made quickly without using force.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #133 on: April 08, 2023, 01:25:17 pm »
Your stubbornness is merely proof that change on meaningful scale cannot be made quickly without using force.
The age old justification used by authoritarians everywhere. If you can't get the vast majority to consent to a good idea well explained, maybe it wasn't so great after all.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #134 on: April 08, 2023, 01:40:12 pm »
Your stubbornness is merely proof that change on meaningful scale cannot be made quickly without using force.
The age old justification used by authoritarians everywhere. If you can't get the vast majority to consent to a good idea well explained, maybe it wasn't so great after all.

I think you overestimate the intelligence of the vast majority.
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #135 on: April 08, 2023, 01:56:05 pm »
Your stubbornness is merely proof that change on meaningful scale cannot be made quickly without using force.
The age old justification used by authoritarians everywhere. If you can't get the vast majority to consent to a good idea well explained, maybe it wasn't so great after all.

I think you overestimate the intelligence of the vast majority.
But the majority of people are moving away from incandescent lighting anyway.

There's no point in these silly authoritarian laws.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #136 on: April 08, 2023, 02:20:00 pm »
Your stubbornness is merely proof that change on meaningful scale cannot be made quickly without using force.
The age old justification used by authoritarians everywhere. If you can't get the vast majority to consent to a good idea well explained, maybe it wasn't so great after all.
I think you overestimate the intelligence of the vast majority.
I think you overestimate your own intelligence. Especially your ability to spot all the consequences of your actions ahead of time. There's a reason free markets work best. They may suck in many ways, but they are way ahead of some idiot who thinks they know best.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2023, 02:21:56 pm by coppice »
 

Offline Xena E

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #137 on: April 08, 2023, 02:40:45 pm »
I don't see that my or anyone else running a couple of filament lamps over their office desk, workbench and lounge recliner is going to make a sh*ts worth of difference to ecology.  I have a neighbour who bangs on incessantly about this kind of thing, he flew in a rage when I pointed out that changing his (bad) driving style would have more beneficial effect than my saving a couple hundred watts of power for some of my lighting.

But it's not about your lighting. It's about your lighting.. and tens of millions of others.

Your stubbornness is merely proof that change on meaningful scale cannot be made quickly without using force.

I'm not being stuborn, I embraced LED lighting, and have been involved in the development of its use. My home useage from non renewable energy is as low or lower than yours I guarantee: (thats why I posted that I was unconcerned about the cost), in any case usage is never above 3.5kW/day average. I just prefer incandescent lighting for work and reading, if I find that changes then happy days. I've done my bit without the forcible prompting of politicians or tree huggers.

The point is it is legislative control by know nothings who want to be popular with the noisy mindless minorities: it would happen even if it were not 'necessary'. Having power over others lives is how these Ar5ehole5 get thier rocks off.

 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #138 on: April 08, 2023, 04:05:30 pm »
Quote
it would happen even if it were not 'necessary'

Unfortunately I am with Monkeh on this. LEDs cost a lot more than incandescent, and a significant portion of the population will buy on price. Particularly if they try an LED and find it far too blue compared to what they are used to. Yes, the electricity bill should be lower, but that's months away and associating this particular lamp with some arbitrary figure in the bill isn't going to happen. At best, if they figure the light is costing them, the user will try not to have the lights on for so long.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #139 on: April 08, 2023, 06:06:56 pm »
Your stubbornness is merely proof that change on meaningful scale cannot be made quickly without using force.
The age old justification used by authoritarians everywhere. If you can't get the vast majority to consent to a good idea well explained, maybe it wasn't so great after all.
I think you overestimate the intelligence of the vast majority.
I think you overestimate your own intelligence. Especially your ability to spot all the consequences of your actions ahead of time. There's a reason free markets work best. They may suck in many ways, but they are way ahead of some idiot who thinks they know best.

Charming. Thank you for reducing the discussion on the long-term planning of agencies whose job is to regulate markets to personal attacks on someone uninvolved in their decision making.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #140 on: April 08, 2023, 07:39:51 pm »
Your stubbornness is merely proof that change on meaningful scale cannot be made quickly without using force.
The age old justification used by authoritarians everywhere. If you can't get the vast majority to consent to a good idea well explained, maybe it wasn't so great after all.
I think you overestimate the intelligence of the vast majority.
I think you overestimate your own intelligence. Especially your ability to spot all the consequences of your actions ahead of time. There's a reason free markets work best. They may suck in many ways, but they are way ahead of some idiot who thinks they know best.

Charming. Thank you for reducing the discussion on the long-term planning of agencies whose job is to regulate markets to personal attacks on someone uninvolved in their decision making.
I didn't make a personal attack. I didn't say I was smarter than you, or anyone else was smarter than you. What I said is true of you, or me, or anyone else. Nobody has a clue how to long term plan any major aspect of society. Every time they try it doesn't take long before a lot of blood gets spilled.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #141 on: April 08, 2023, 07:43:50 pm »
Every time they try it doesn't take long before a lot of blood gets spilled.

I haven't seen the great luminaire wars of Europe begin thus far, have you?
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #142 on: April 08, 2023, 07:51:23 pm »
Every time they try it doesn't take long before a lot of blood gets spilled.
I haven't seen the great luminaire wars of Europe begin thus far, have you?
For someone who attacked the intelligence of the public, you aren't sounding very bright yourself. Once people with an authoritarian mindset find they can get away with pushing the public around in minor ways they keep upping their game, until someone pushes back. The longer that takes the more destruction happens before they do.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #143 on: April 08, 2023, 08:14:40 pm »
Every time they try it doesn't take long before a lot of blood gets spilled.
I haven't seen the great luminaire wars of Europe begin thus far, have you?
For someone who attacked the intelligence of the public, you aren't sounding very bright yourself. Once people with an authoritarian mindset find they can get away with pushing the public around in minor ways they keep upping their game, until someone pushes back. The longer that takes the more destruction happens before they do.

Yep, and that is actually true at all levels, even in your personal/professional relationships. I'd say it may just be down to entropy in the end, or something like that.

If you have a "control freak" around, that is usually also exactly what will happen. They'll keep pushing and the longer you let them push, the nastier it gets. If you do nothing, it can end up pretty badly.

I don't think there's any way around it. It's just basic physics at play, whether we like it or not.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #144 on: April 08, 2023, 09:51:29 pm »
Your stubbornness is merely proof that change on meaningful scale cannot be made quickly without using force.
The age old justification used by authoritarians everywhere. If you can't get the vast majority to consent to a good idea well explained, maybe it wasn't so great after all.
I think you overestimate the intelligence of the vast majority.
I think you overestimate your own intelligence. Especially your ability to spot all the consequences of your actions ahead of time. There's a reason free markets work best. They may suck in many ways, but they are way ahead of some idiot who thinks they know best.
Free markets don't work at all! And mainly due to the vast majority of the people not having all the knowledge required to make the best decissions in today's complex world. Let alone, the lesser educated part of the population.

So yes, decissions need to be made for the public with a long term plan in mind. Even though those plans might need adjustments along the way. Or may even seem unlogical to some.

History is riddled with bans and requirements that save lives every day. Think about airbags, seatbelts, anti-skid, unleaded fuel, emission limits on cars. All things that don't make a car better in any way to get from A to B, but these government mandated requirements are a huge improvement for the society in the big picture.

Especially big companies have the empathy level of a 4 year old kid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed
« Last Edit: April 08, 2023, 09:54:02 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline KaneTW

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #145 on: April 08, 2023, 10:21:46 pm »
The ban will change nothing, just like it changed nothing in the EU.

"Incandescent light bulb for industrial use, not suitable for home use" Seems plenty suitable to me/
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #146 on: April 08, 2023, 10:47:08 pm »
Your stubbornness is merely proof that change on meaningful scale cannot be made quickly without using force.
The age old justification used by authoritarians everywhere. If you can't get the vast majority to consent to a good idea well explained, maybe it wasn't so great after all.

I think you overestimate the intelligence of the vast majority.

True, but you in turn are probably overestimating the intelligence of the people "in charge".
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #147 on: April 08, 2023, 11:42:30 pm »
Free markets don't work at all! And mainly due to the vast majority of the people not having all the knowledge required to make the best decissions in today's complex world. Let alone, the lesser educated part of the population.
Free markets aren't perfect, but nothing is. The best approximations to free markets have worked better than anything else the human race has tried.
So yes, decisions need to be made for the public with a long term plan in mind. Even though those plans might need adjustments along the way. Or may even seem unlogical to some.

History is riddled with bans and requirements that save lives every day. Think about airbags, seatbelts, anti-skid, unleaded fuel, emission limits on cars. All things that don't make a car better in any way to get from A to B, but these government mandated requirements are a huge improvement for the society in the big picture.
History is just as riddled with bans and requirements that utterly failed. Things like drink driving. It was illegal for decades, with little effect. It was a shift in social norms that eventually got that under control. I didn't suggest we don't need regulation, but they are always risky. Unbalanced regulations, and ones that lead to massive gaming of the system, have been very destructive. Regulations like "all cars must have seat belts that meet these standards" can be a very free market thing to introduce, if done with care. If everyone has to do it, and the details of the rules are not twisted in one group's favour, it can actually help level the competitive playing field.
Especially big companies have the empathy level of a 4 year old kid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed
That's the very reason we need free markets. The only thing we've found to keep people like that reasonably honest has been to make them compete. They don't like that, so they try their best to form cartels, and other twisted organisations, that limit competition and let them get back to their 4 year old activities. Governments and corporations are very similar in this regard. None of them should be trusted too much. My God, they are run by people. What fool trusts those creeps.

 

Offline tooki

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #148 on: April 08, 2023, 11:43:43 pm »
Politics is no longer separate from science.
When has this not been the case? I mean, back when politics and religion were one and the same, they literally murdered, banished, or imprisoned scientists under the guise of “heresy”.

Universities have become breeding grounds for political activism.
Aside from the fact that political activism has always been one aspect of academia, since both academia and politics exist in the same universe, I don’t think there’s actually any evidence to support claims of this being more so now than in the past (as the wording “have become” implies). The only thing I see as having changed is that now a certain segment of the population has their knickers in a twist about it, having been whipped to a froth by disingenuous “news”casters and social media fearmongers.
The difference is now it's skewed to one side of the political spectrum. Academic freedom in countries such as the US and UK has been in severe decline over the last few years. It's a worldwide problem, but the decline in the previously most free countries is the most concerning aspect of this trend.
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/significant-declines-us-and-uk-academic-freedom-ranking
I don’t think the skew has moved at all. Again, look at the history of politics and activism in academia and it’s always been on the left, often far left (far more left than today, in many cases). The loss of academic freedom thing is orthogonal to this — that change (which I consider to be negative) can happen without any change in the typical political slant. (Which, frankly, is just innate in education anyway, since secular academia is all about studying objective reality: as they say, “reality has a liberal bias”.)
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #149 on: April 08, 2023, 11:52:09 pm »
as they say, “reality has a liberal bias”.)
Reality seems to have a classically liberal bias. Look at places like the UK in the industrial revolution, or Japan, Singapore, Korea, or Taiwan in the late 20th century. I only hear people who equate liberal with left say "reality has a liberal bias" when they are a leftist who has lost all touch with reality.
 


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