Author Topic: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks  (Read 18307 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #75 on: April 03, 2023, 08:53:22 pm »
Huh? Incandescent lamps flicker. Its 100Hz/120Hz and doesn't go anywhere near zero, but its there. A decent LED has a really steady output.

Come on, don't feign confusion, you know what I'm talking about, a few years ago after a similar debate came up and people insisting that the bulbs didn't flicker I connected a photodiode to a scope and demonstrated it. Out of a random selection of LED bulbs I grabbed, most of them flickered, some sharply, some at mains frequency, some at the driver frequency, some both. The flicker form an incandescent lamp is negligible, just a little 120Hz noise on the top of a smooth line, the thermal inertia of the filament provides a great deal of filtering. Next to one of the flickery LED bulbs (the filament type with no space for a proper driver are typically the worst) the difference is like night and day. Maybe I should have used the word "strobe" instead of flicker. Many LED lights strobe, some do not but many do, incandescent bulbs do not, even the cheap ones. For this reason I always buy a sample of a particular bulb so I can evaluate it for my needs before I buy more of them. As I've said many times, I have long been a big fan of LED bulbs, but I don't pretend that they are flawless, the light quality can be good, but it's not better, they simply do not have a full spectrum and even the best cannot achieve a CRI of 100, this is a fact.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2023, 08:59:24 pm »
I suppose the question is: there may be advantages of incandescent for some, but are they really worth the extra running cost?

Is the law really necessary? If only a tiny minority of people use incandescent, then it's not going to make much difference in the grand scheme of things.

An alternative to banning, would simply tax them so they cost the same as LED.

For me, no, the energy savings outweighs the handful of disadvantages, but that's a personal decision that I have no right to make for others.

I have advocated since the very start a tax on less efficient lamps to subsidize more efficient types. I have a fundamental ethical problem with bans and very little tolerance for authoritarian types. I don't like being pushed around and and don't tolerate it, nor do most people, even the ones that support banning and mandating things get upset when somebody tries to force something on them. I will dig in my heals and push back in response when somebody tries if only because I absolutely refuse to validate bullying.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #77 on: April 03, 2023, 09:00:31 pm »
Good for you, I also have been happily using LED lighting in my home for as long as it was available, as I mentioned I was an early adopter. It's good, but the light is not as good as incandescent, it's close, and the energy savings and long lifespan are enough to make me choose it, but the lower CRI and lack of continuous spectrum, which are objectively true and easily measured traits makes colors look less vibrant, this is particularly true of reds and browns. If you don't notice or care that's fine, a lot of people don't, but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid issue. 5500k is nice for my laundry room and garage but for a cozy living space it sounds horrid, to each their own.
...

The first time I held a spectroscope up to a bog standard diy store  LED lamp, I was struck by how continuous the spectrum actually is. None of the spectral peaks that you get with a florescent. The phosphors are actually pretty good these days. Obviously as you go towards the cold end of the spectrum colour temperature range, you'll get more of the LED blue fundamental showing through.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2023, 09:04:26 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #78 on: April 03, 2023, 09:06:35 pm »
The first time I held a spectroscope up to a bog standard diy store  LED lamp, I was struck by how continuous the spectrum actually is. None of the spectral peaks that you get with a florescent. The phosphors are actually pretty good these days. Obviously as you go towards the cold end of the spectrum colour temperature range, you'll get more of the LED blue fundamental showing through.

LED is far superior to fluorescent in that respect, that's certainly true.

Attached are spectral plots of an ordinary incandescent lamp, a Philips remote phosphor LED which is the first really good LED lamp I encountered and the type I bought a bunch of back around 2011, and finally a 2700k trichromatic compact fluorescent. The trichromatic lamps were revolutionary in terms of efficiency and light quality compared to older types but still pretty bad compared to sunlight and incandescent. Where most fluorescent and LED sources fall short is in the red end of the spectrum. The trichromatic red is closer to red-orange than to a true blood-red, and most LEDs are deficient in the red end of the spectrum too. Many high CRI LED lamps include some true red emitters to boost this, but it comes with an efficiency penalty because the eye is less sensitive to red. It's this lack of true deep red that makes red and brown objects look a bit off.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2023, 09:08:59 pm by james_s »
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #79 on: April 03, 2023, 09:13:24 pm »
Well obviously, by definition, you're not going to match the sunlight or tungsten filament (although it's impossible to run one hot enough to bring up the blue end to an acceptable level), but there are none of the obvious 'holes' that you might expect.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #80 on: April 03, 2023, 09:33:13 pm »
The first time I held a spectroscope up to a bog standard diy store  LED lamp, I was struck by how continuous the spectrum actually is. None of the spectral peaks that you get with a florescent. The phosphors are actually pretty good these days. Obviously as you go towards the cold end of the spectrum colour temperature range, you'll get more of the LED blue fundamental showing through.
Fluorescent tubes vary enormously. Most are made for decent efficiency, and compromise on colour. However, that can get you into a lot of trouble in some places. Clothing stores are a good example. Poorly chosen tubes in those places cause a flood of "it didn't look like this when I bought it" returns. An executive in one of the UK's biggest clothing retailers lost his job by screwing up a bulk order for tubes which caused mass clothing returns. For decades the best colour rendition available in a light for artists was a rather inefficient fluorescent tube called "graphic". It used different glass to get a the intensity of those 2 main mercury lines down, and a phosphor mix chosen for accuracy over efficiency. They were generally driven from an electronic ballast, to eliminate flicker.
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2023, 09:46:25 pm »
Several things incandescents are better at:
1) Surviving hot environments, such as providing illumination inside an oven. Or in old fixtures that have ZERO ventilation (the fixture was designed for the heat, but the alternative bulbs die from their own heat -- found out the hard way.)
2) Being used as load resistors, with feedback, also known as a dim bulb tester.
3) When being used for their secondary function, providing heat rather than light. They're rather good at it.

That said, modern LED's have gotten acceptable, and I use them for lights I use regularly. Lights I use less than an hour a year I've never bothered to change. Nearly all the closets still have old-school 100W bulbs in them. Even counting electricity, they aren't cost-effective to change at this time.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #82 on: April 03, 2023, 10:13:07 pm »
I suppose the question is: there may be advantages of incandescent for some, but are they really worth the extra running cost?

Is the law really necessary? If only a tiny minority of people use incandescent, then it's not going to make much difference in the grand scheme of things.

An alternative to banning, would simply tax them so they cost the same as LED.

For me, no, the energy savings outweighs the handful of disadvantages, but that's a personal decision that I have no right to make for others.

Yeah. I'm more mixed about that. The energy savings are dramatic. That's for sure. I have replaced lots of 50W halogen spot bulbs with 6W LED spot bulbs, and these are actually much brighter. Crazy.

Now I'm not so happy with the light they provide. I have selected warm white ones, but even with those it looks clinically cold. Cold white ones are of course even worse. I haven't found anything that looked "better" for my taste/use cases so far. Or you'd resort to RGB LED bulbs to get the white tone you want but which are much less bright, and more expensive, so not that great of a deal.

Then there's the flickering as you mentioned. Not all are created equal of course, but if you want zero flicker then you have to buy specific stuff, Philips makes such stuff. Still expensive. Constant current DC  LED drivers.

I don't miss the heat coming from halogen bulbs, but I kinda miss the light they emit.
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #83 on: April 03, 2023, 11:43:33 pm »
Huh? Incandescent lamps flicker. Its 100Hz/120Hz and doesn't go anywhere near zero, but its there. A decent LED has a really steady output.

Come on, don't feign confusion, you know what I'm talking about, a few years ago after a similar debate came up and people insisting that the bulbs didn't flicker I connected a photodiode to a scope and demonstrated it. Out of a random selection of LED bulbs I grabbed, most of them flickered, some sharply, some at mains frequency, some at the driver frequency, some both. The flicker form an incandescent lamp is negligible, just a little 120Hz noise on the top of a smooth line, the thermal inertia of the filament provides a great deal of filtering. Next to one of the flickery LED bulbs (the filament type with no space for a proper driver are typically the worst) the difference is like night and day. Maybe I should have used the word "strobe" instead of flicker. Many LED lights strobe, some do not but many do, incandescent bulbs do not, even the cheap ones. For this reason I always buy a sample of a particular bulb so I can evaluate it for my needs before I buy more of them. As I've said many times, I have long been a big fan of LED bulbs, but I don't pretend that they are flawless, the light quality can be good, but it's not better, they simply do not have a full spectrum and even the best cannot achieve a CRI of 100, this is a fact.
This depends on the bulb's design.  I can find bulbs with a filament which has a deep modulation due to a thin spaced out long filament VS a tightly wound high wattage thick filament which holds it's temperature by means of slowly fading out when the power is cut.  Also, for the faster cooling filaments, the 100hz flicker is worse in the blue part of the spectrum compared to the red.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #84 on: April 04, 2023, 12:13:08 am »
Huh? Incandescent lamps flicker. Its 100Hz/120Hz and doesn't go anywhere near zero, but its there. A decent LED has a really steady output.

Come on, don't feign confusion, you know what I'm talking about, a few years ago after a similar debate came up and people insisting that the bulbs didn't flicker I connected a photodiode to a scope and demonstrated it. Out of a random selection of LED bulbs I grabbed, most of them flickered, some sharply, some at mains frequency, some at the driver frequency, some both. The flicker form an incandescent lamp is negligible, just a little 120Hz noise on the top of a smooth line, the thermal inertia of the filament provides a great deal of filtering. Next to one of the flickery LED bulbs (the filament type with no space for a proper driver are typically the worst) the difference is like night and day. Maybe I should have used the word "strobe" instead of flicker. Many LED lights strobe, some do not but many do, incandescent bulbs do not, even the cheap ones. For this reason I always buy a sample of a particular bulb so I can evaluate it for my needs before I buy more of them. As I've said many times, I have long been a big fan of LED bulbs, but I don't pretend that they are flawless, the light quality can be good, but it's not better, they simply do not have a full spectrum and even the best cannot achieve a CRI of 100, this is a fact.
This depends on the bulb's design.  I can find bulbs with a filament which has a deep modulation due to a thin spaced out long filament VS a tightly wound high wattage thick filament which holds it's temperature by means of slowly fading out when the power is cut.  Also, for the faster cooling filaments, the 100hz flicker is worse in the blue part of the spectrum compared to the red.
I'm used to 230V bulbs. US ones probably flicker less. Try looking at the THD in the current waveform or power consumption of a 230V incandescent bulb, when fed with a clean voltage signal. Many are over 20%. That's a clue to much that filament is heating and cooling every half cycle of the mains, and how much the light output is modulated.
 

Offline RJSV

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2023, 12:13:38 am »
   All this talk about flicker, I can't hold my tongue for long:
   A mysterious part, of my cluster of neurological symptoms (LYME diagnosis), is a visual 'flicker', that, I discovered, is in sync with my heartbeat.  Opthomologist checked for detached retina, (nope), and happens in either right or left eye.
I've always assumed it was a high blood pressure thing, as perhaps pressure surges cause the light to dark oscillations.  Happens with reflected sunlight also,off nearby lighter colored surfaces.  Annoying at first: I went to check the lamp cord !
   Rate, like I said, in sync with cardiac pressure impulses, rate at 1/50 hz (that's with Bradycardia,
50 BPM).
West coast doctors not keen on discussing LYME disease, as a whole, for whatever reason.

   So, anyway, I know about distracting 'flicker', for
sure, lol.
- - RJ
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #86 on: April 04, 2023, 02:07:52 am »
Several things incandescents are better at:
1) Surviving hot environments, such as providing illumination inside an oven. Or in old fixtures that have ZERO ventilation (the fixture was designed for the heat, but the alternative bulbs die from their own heat -- found out the hard way.)
2) Being used as load resistors, with feedback, also known as a dim bulb tester.
3) When being used for their secondary function, providing heat rather than light. They're rather good at it.


4) For museums and art galleries. Woe on the art director who dares to display a painting illuminated by LEDs or CFLs.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #87 on: April 04, 2023, 08:29:33 am »
Several things incandescents are better at:
1) Surviving hot environments, such as providing illumination inside an oven. Or in old fixtures that have ZERO ventilation (the fixture was designed for the heat, but the alternative bulbs die from their own heat -- found out the hard way.)

In an oven, the bulb almost certainly helps warm up the oven anyway, so I doubt it is a major target for efficiency.  Nonetheless, our new Panasonic microwave oven has an LED illuminator and I've seen ovens with these too.  If the LED is kept in the 'safe-to-touch' area and well heatsinked, it should last the life of the oven.  Plus, the light pattern from carbon filament LED bulbs is a bit naff (and they're not usually that bright) which can make it harder to see things in the oven.
 

Offline m k

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #88 on: April 04, 2023, 09:27:37 am »
So, anyway, I know about distracting 'flicker', for sure, lol.

I think I've had some painless migraine symptoms for all my adult life.
Every now and then a spot of my vision is blurred, sometimes with pretty clear stair shape, that goes to the right in few hours max.
Not a long ago it started from so center that looking a left ear I couldn't see a face.

Nowadays I hardly watch TV but earlier when old recordings were shown in digital format I was irritated by loose faces.

Back in the CRT time 50/60 Hz lights/picture was also more than a bit disturbing.

Seeing is a complex thing.
They also say that below hearing frequency sound can create ghosts.
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #89 on: April 04, 2023, 09:31:52 am »
   All this talk about flicker, I can't hold my tongue for long:
   A mysterious part, of my cluster of neurological symptoms (LYME diagnosis), is a visual 'flicker', that, I discovered, is in sync with my heartbeat.  Opthomologist checked for detached retina, (nope), and happens in either right or left eye.
I've always assumed it was a high blood pressure thing, as perhaps pressure surges cause the light to dark oscillations.  Happens with reflected sunlight also,off nearby lighter colored surfaces.  Annoying at first: I went to check the lamp cord !
   Rate, like I said, in sync with cardiac pressure impulses, rate at 1/50 hz (that's with Bradycardia,
50 BPM).
West coast doctors not keen on discussing LYME disease, as a whole, for whatever reason.

   So, anyway, I know about distracting 'flicker', for
sure, lol.
- - RJ

Err sorry, I'm probably being dense but I don't follow the maths.

The light is going to be flickering at (I thought the US was 60Hz, but anyway) the flicker rate is going to be 20 / 16.67ms (full cycle) or, more likely, 10 / 8.33ms (half cycle),  100 / 120 flickers per second.

You are talking about you heart rate being 50 beats per minute. Are you saying that your heart beat is synchronised accurately to within 10 / 8.33 milliseconds?  :o
Even the fastest QRS portion of the heart cycle is in the order of 100ms.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 09:48:23 am by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline Wallace Gasiewicz

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #90 on: April 04, 2023, 11:02:08 am »
Quote from: Nusa on Yesterday at 09:46:25 pm
Several things incandescents are better at:
1) Surviving hot environments, such as providing illumination inside an oven. Or in old fixtures that have ZERO ventilation (the fixture was designed for the heat, but the alternative bulbs die from their own heat -- found out the hard way.)
2) Being used as load resistors, with feedback, also known as a dim bulb tester.
3) When being used for their secondary function, providing heat rather than light. They're rather good at it.

That said, modern LED's have gotten acceptable, and I use them for lights I use regularly. Lights I use less than an hour a year I've never bothered to change. Nearly all the closets still have old-school 100W bulbs in them. Even counting electricity, they aren't cost-effective to change at this time.


One or two incandescents can take the edge off the cold in a small chicken coop or a doghouse.
 

Offline RJSV

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #91 on: April 04, 2023, 11:26:45 am »
Gyro:
   Sorry to be unclear.  My experiences aren't at the electrical rate, probably would have appearance of flicker even with a DC lamp...(or natural sunlit room).
It's as if each cardiac pressure pulse causes a slight momentary decrease in ambient light in the room.
So that's exactly in sync with 50 BPM heart rate, which is closer to 1.2 seconds elapsed.
   Yeah, might be classed in migraine-like exp.
 
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Offline Someone

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #92 on: April 04, 2023, 12:16:45 pm »
Several things incandescents are better at:
1) Surviving hot environments, such as providing illumination inside an oven. Or in old fixtures that have ZERO ventilation (the fixture was designed for the heat, but the alternative bulbs die from their own heat -- found out the hard way.)
2) Being used as load resistors, with feedback, also known as a dim bulb tester.
3) When being used for their secondary function, providing heat rather than light. They're rather good at it.
4) For museums and art galleries. Woe on the art director who dares to display a painting illuminated by LEDs or CFLs.
Yet conservators like that LEDs dont require filtering to remove UV and IR
https://www.canada.ca/en/conservation-institute/services/conservation-preservation-publications/technical-bulletins/led-lighting-museums.html
High CRI LEDs are cheap and commonplace, with only a small hit to efficiency.
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #93 on: April 04, 2023, 05:50:00 pm »
looks like US is becoming like a part of Europe  and its environmentalists policy
go figure! former first ??men & the former 44th is in the driver's seat of the geriatric 46th POTUS
as the 45th go,s to court. :palm:
Hobbyist with a basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #94 on: April 04, 2023, 05:55:30 pm »
4) For museums and art galleries. Woe on the art director who dares to display a painting illuminated by LEDs or CFLs.
The thing is, the best LEDs are so good that you’ve almost certainly seen them and simply assumed they were incandescent.

As Someone said, they have significant advantages for conservation. Many people don’t know that there are two kinds of halogen reflector bulbs, one of which was commonly used in museums and the like. One has fully-metalized reflectors that reflect everything, including IR radiation. This means they can’t be pointed at objects that are heat-sensitive, but the bulbs don’t need any special considerations for the lamp fixture. The other type uses a dichroic reflector, which reflects the visible light but allows the IR to pass through. This dramatically reduces the heat radiated together with the visible light, but places special requirements on any enclosed fixtures, since they must be capable of handling the heat. For example, this may preclude the use in recessed fixtures.

LED doesn’t have those drawbacks: they run very cool (compared to incandescent and halogen) and IR-free, both in the fixture and at the object.

Additionally, they make specially tuned LEDs for specific applications. For example, for grocery stores, they have LEDs with spectra optimized for meats, others for vegetables, another for bread, etc. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if they make museum LEDs optimized for specific types of objects.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #95 on: April 04, 2023, 06:11:11 pm »
For decades the best colour rendition available in a light for artists was a rather inefficient fluorescent tube called "graphic". It used different glass to get a the intensity of those 2 main mercury lines down, and a phosphor mix chosen for accuracy over efficiency. They were generally driven from an electronic ballast, to eliminate flicker.
There were many, and the standard for color-accurate graphic design is the so-called D50 light. (Daylight, 5000K.) I haven’t been involved in the graphic arts for a long time, but I assume these will eventually be implemented with LEDs, if they haven’t been already. The fluorescent tubes are still available though.
 
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Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #96 on: April 04, 2023, 07:28:55 pm »
This thread is reminiscent of the vacuum tube vs solid-state argument, but now it's about light instead of sound.   ::)
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #97 on: April 04, 2023, 07:35:06 pm »
looks like US is becoming like a part of Europe  and its environmentalists policy
go figure! former first ??men & the former 44th is in the driver's seat of the geriatric 46th POTUS
as the 45th go,s to court. :palm:

Leaving aside your irrelevant US political comments... I would have thought that, with your weather switching to shit, increasing wildfires etc, you would want the whole world to have an environmentalist policy!
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #98 on: April 04, 2023, 07:49:13 pm »
You forgot to mention: the oceans boiling!
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Biden admin moving forward with light bulb bans in coming weeks
« Reply #99 on: April 07, 2023, 07:55:13 am »
You forgot to mention: the oceans boiling!


Well the ocean's temperature is rising, an scientists admit that it is probably absorbing more heat than they initially thought. I just despair at the mass stupidity and hysteria over everything. We live on a dynamic planet, things change, we are in a small snapshot of it's history and our mere existence and evolution is a statistical fluke, let's not push our luck.
 
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