Author Topic: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire  (Read 5097 times)

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Offline soldarTopic starter

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Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« on: October 16, 2023, 10:24:12 am »
There have been other threads about copper-clad steel or aluminum wire.

Big Clive puts one from eBay to the test and it promptly catches fire.

Here is the thing though: It is the importer into the EU (or UK) who is responsible for the product meeting safety standards. It is not the job of the Chinese seller. If you buy a single item from China you are responsible for the safety. If you are not sure then better buy only from accredited importers (and pay the premium).

It is not like the cable is intrinsically bad. It is perfectly good for other applications but not for putting 5A through it to power a toaster.

I suppose an argument could be made that eBay or Amazon should bear responsibility that the products comply with the standards of the destination country but they would simply not do any international sales because it is too costly to get the approval.

Do we prefer the freedom to buy dangerous things or do we prefer the safety of having every product we buy controlled by our authorities? Tough call.



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Offline tom66

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2023, 10:31:52 am »
I prefer a market which isn't flooded with dangerous crap.  The average user has no idea that this cable is crap and is liable to start a fire, and if they plug it into their toaster in an apartment block, that could become another crisis like Grenfell was.
 
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Offline iMo

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2023, 10:39:13 am »
The copper clad aluminum started decades back with CAT patch cables (solid wires) afaik.
I can remember I put the naked CAT wire into the flame testing whether the wire is copper clad AL or copper.
With network cables it is not a big problem as those signals are low power and fast (skin effect).
Readers discretion is advised..
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2023, 12:14:35 pm »
The connector (EU 2 pole one) is not specified for 5 A, but only for 2.5A at most. So at least under normal conditions there should be no load with more than 2.5 A accepting this type of cable.
It is still not good or safe - it may withstand 2.5 A when single, but just a single loop or knot in the cable can be an issue.

I also still have some iron core cable - though not intended for mains, but an old  "military grade" phone cable.
 

Offline 5U4GB

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2023, 12:30:54 pm »
It is not like the cable is intrinsically bad. It is perfectly good for other applications

Just as an example, here's a demo of something that CCA cable is perfectly suited for:



As you can see, it's being used correctly here.  Some crazy people however try and run power through it which is definitely not its intended use, as the comment in the video points out.
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2023, 05:06:30 pm »
I have a k40 laser cutter, the wires for the fan were just twisted together. I binned the fan shortly afterwards as it was very thin wire and I just didn't trust it.
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Offline Infraviolet

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2023, 09:10:01 pm »
Import restrictions are never a good thing...
The problem with this product is that it was ever made in the first place. By virtue of the types of connectors on its ends it is implying that it is designed to be used for the full current which is supported by those styles of connector. The fact it has been manufactured with them, but not with good enough wiring to take that current means its manufacturers should be punished for even making it, never mind where it gets sold.

It wouldn't be acceptable to make a device with a micro USB (male end) connector which used this interface to put out tens of volts (imagine the damage it would do if plugged in to a phone's USB port, because it looked and fitted like a 5V phone charger). The USB port has expected pin outs and voltage and current specifications. So it shouldn't be acceptable to use those types of plugs on a cable not rated for the current those plug connectors are expected to deliver.

Isn't there some sort of "copyright" on the design of the plug which counts for nothing normally, but can be used against any company manufacturing something with that plug which doesn't meet the electrical expectations that the plug's presence implies the cable meets?

This surely isn't a cable that would be "only useful in China" (China surely doesn't go around using the european type plug for low current applications), its a cable where the cable type is inappropriate for anything the plug is appropriate for.

Also, shows the advantage of the UK style plug, where a fuse is there right at the socket end.
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2023, 10:48:14 pm »
For safety always check the fuse rating chart
 
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Offline soldarTopic starter

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2023, 12:03:39 am »
Import restrictions are never a good thing...
The problem with this product is that it was ever made in the first place. By virtue of the types of connectors on its ends it is implying that it is designed to be used for the full current which is supported by those styles of connector. The fact it has been manufactured with them, but not with good enough wiring to take that current means its manufacturers should be punished for even making it, never mind where it gets sold.

It wouldn't be acceptable to make a device with a micro USB (male end) connector which used this interface to put out tens of volts (imagine the damage it would do if plugged in to a phone's USB port, because it looked and fitted like a 5V phone charger). The USB port has expected pin outs and voltage and current specifications. So it shouldn't be acceptable to use those types of plugs on a cable not rated for the current those plug connectors are expected to deliver.

Isn't there some sort of "copyright" on the design of the plug which counts for nothing normally, but can be used against any company manufacturing something with that plug which doesn't meet the electrical expectations that the plug's presence implies the cable meets?

This surely isn't a cable that would be "only useful in China" (China surely doesn't go around using the european type plug for low current applications), its a cable where the cable type is inappropriate for anything the plug is appropriate for.

Also, shows the advantage of the UK style plug, where a fuse is there right at the socket end.
That is not how the world works. The EU, the UK or the USA have no authority or capability of enforcing their laws in other countries just as other countries do not have the authority of enforcing their laws in the EU , the UK or the USA.

Furthermore, while it might be illegal to sell such a cable to the public in the EU or the UK it is not illegal to manufacture it and sell it abroad.

Again, the importer (seller) is responsible for the product they sell meeting safety standards.

If Joe Blow buys a cable or other device abroad and imports it then he takes responsibility.

Since many people do not have the knowledge or qualification it might make sense for the platforms like ebay or amazon to make sellers guarantee that a product meets EU standards or declare that no such representation is made. A notice such as "We make no representation that this product meets any safety standards" might discourage some buyers.

I have bought some crappy crap from China but I assumed it was crappy when I bought it. If you want a product guaranteed to meet local standards then you should buy locally... and pay the price.
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Offline wraper

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2023, 12:18:52 am »
The copper clad aluminum started decades back with CAT patch cables (solid wires) afaik.
I can remember I put the naked CAT wire into the flame testing whether the wire is copper clad AL or copper.
With network cables it is not a big problem as those signals are low power and fast (skin effect).
Until this garbage loses contact in connector or you use PoE
 

Offline Ranayna

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2023, 10:09:59 am »
I buy nothing that directly requires mains directly from china.
But even when you buy from a bigger importer, there is sometimes dodgy stuff, as with my ZD-915.

I sometimes buy stuff requiring an external power supply, but that, including any mains cable, will be scrapped.
 
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Offline magic

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2023, 10:24:48 am »
If you are the importer, legally you have no one but yourself to blame. Ergo, don't buy anything safety critical from China unless you know what you are doing.

I would extend it to "don't use anything safety critical made by commies", because the former Eastern Bloc stuff wasn't much better :scared:

BTW, AFAIK manufacturing such stuff is also legal in the EU, and even selling it to consumers - elsewhere.
 

Offline soldarTopic starter

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2023, 10:36:30 am »
I buy nothing that directly requires mains directly from china.
But even when you buy from a bigger importer, there is sometimes dodgy stuff, as with my ZD-915.

I sometimes buy stuff requiring an external power supply, but that, including any mains cable, will be scrapped.
There is a difference between buying directly from Amazon, in which case they are responsible, or buying from a third party through Amazon's marketplace in which case the seller is responsible.

In my opinion Amazon and eBay do not make that clear enough as they should.

This guy bought a cheap charger and it wrecked his expensive camera.

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Offline Ranayna

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2023, 11:08:53 am »
In my opinion Amazon and eBay do not make that clear enough as they should.
I agree.
I recently was in a discussion about that in a german forum, and there the majority of the posters put the full blame on the customer if they buy crap on Amazon and they don't realize what implication a long delivery time can have.
Someone bought a kind glue that cannot be imported into the EU, and was miffed that the package was intercepted and destroyed by customs. Of course there was not even a hint on the product page, and a lot of recent reviews in german. By now the product page has been taken down though.
So how is a layman supposed to know that stuff sold on the german page of the largest online retailer - that has an excellent customer reputation - could be illegal?
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2023, 08:14:06 am »
Import restrictions are never a good thing...
The problem with this product is that it was ever made in the first place. By virtue of the types of connectors on its ends it is implying that it is designed to be used for the full current which is supported by those styles of connector. The fact it has been manufactured with them, but not with good enough wiring to take that current means its manufacturers should be punished for even making it, never mind where it gets sold.

It wouldn't be acceptable to make a device with a micro USB (male end) connector which used this interface to put out tens of volts (imagine the damage it would do if plugged in to a phone's USB port, because it looked and fitted like a 5V phone charger). The USB port has expected pin outs and voltage and current specifications. So it shouldn't be acceptable to use those types of plugs on a cable not rated for the current those plug connectors are expected to deliver.

Isn't there some sort of "copyright" on the design of the plug which counts for nothing normally, but can be used against any company manufacturing something with that plug which doesn't meet the electrical expectations that the plug's presence implies the cable meets?

This surely isn't a cable that would be "only useful in China" (China surely doesn't go around using the european type plug for low current applications), its a cable where the cable type is inappropriate for anything the plug is appropriate for.

Also, shows the advantage of the UK style plug, where a fuse is there right at the socket end.
That is not how the world works. The EU, the UK or the USA have no authority or capability of enforcing their laws in other countries just as other countries do not have the authority of enforcing their laws in the EU , the UK or the USA.

Furthermore, while it might be illegal to sell such a cable to the public in the EU or the UK it is not illegal to manufacture it and sell it abroad.

Again, the importer (seller) is responsible for the product they sell meeting safety standards.

If Joe Blow buys a cable or other device abroad and imports it then he takes responsibility.

Since many people do not have the knowledge or qualification it might make sense for the platforms like ebay or amazon to make sellers guarantee that a product meets EU standards or declare that no such representation is made. A notice such as "We make no representation that this product meets any safety standards" might discourage some buyers.

I have bought some crappy crap from China but I assumed it was crappy when I bought it. If you want a product guaranteed to meet local standards then you should buy locally... and pay the price.

The problem is, there is no way Joe Blow can know whether the product he sees on eBay is safe or not. I would also question whether it's his responsibility, since he isn't importing it. Ebay or Amazon should have to take responsibility and ban users who sell dangerous products.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2023, 09:33:22 am »
So what exactly is he doing if not importing it? ::)
(Maybe you would have a point in case of AliExpress or Amazon and their European warehouses, but not direct from China.)


I don't think it's feasible to put this on trade platforms. It's not their product, they have no control over it whatsoever. All they could do is demand paperwork from sellers of certain items in certain categories. Of course, the paperwork will be fake, and good luck going legally after someone outside EU jurisdiction for violating EU regulations. If you ban their account, they will set up a new shell company and sign up for a new one. Good luck having auction sites play detective in faraway countries to figure it out. And who will pay for testing these products to find out that the seller needs banning in the first place?

Besides, as long as greed rules the world, trade sites have no motivation whatsoever to spend money and effort on reducing their sales volume. They quietly permit a lot of unethical shit already, and they will continue.

Education and Darwin are about the only effective solutions. Don't buy dangerous shit from places with zero ethics, simple as that.


(In related news, damn it, reading such posts reminds he of how fucking relieved I am that Brexit went through >:D)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2023, 09:35:11 am by magic »
 

Offline AndyBeez

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2023, 10:53:12 am »
A guy purchased a large quantity of brass screws. I pointed out these were attracted to a magnetic screwdriver? He stated brass is magnetic, which is why it is used in compasses. So off he went to the boat yard and fitted these 'brassic' screws to his beloved day boat. A year later, and after drilling out each rusted screw head, he admitted only Chinese brass is magnetic.

Other examples of metal plated turds: Chinese stainless steel and Chinese solid nickel battery links.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2023, 03:31:12 pm »
So what exactly is he doing if not importing it? ::)
It isn't as though the buyer is going to China, and bringing the item into the country with him. The seller is exporting it to him.

Quote
(Maybe you would have a point in case of AliExpress or Amazon and their European warehouses, but not direct from China.)


I don't think it's feasible to put this on trade platforms. It's not their product, they have no control over it whatsoever. All they could do is demand paperwork from sellers of certain items in certain categories. Of course, the paperwork will be fake, and good luck going legally after someone outside EU jurisdiction for violating EU regulations. If you ban their account, they will set up a new shell company and sign up for a new one. Good luck having auction sites play detective in faraway countries to figure it out. And who will pay for testing these products to find out that the seller needs banning in the first place?

Besides, as long as greed rules the world, trade sites have no motivation whatsoever to spend money and effort on reducing their sales volume. They quietly permit a lot of unethical shit already, and they will continue.

Education and Darwin are about the only effective solutions. Don't buy dangerous shit from places with zero ethics, simple as that.


(In related news, damn it, reading such posts reminds he of how fucking relieved I am that Brexit went through >:D)
There is no way for the buyer to know and it's impossible to educate everyone about what's safe and what isn't. This is why there are product safety standards.

Expecting the platform to take responsibility is the only sensible option. I doubt they would get away with allowing listings for guns and stealth knives to countries where they're prohibited. Why should dangerous electrical items be any different? Heck, I've heard stories about eBay de-listing items because they're deemed to be offensive. I would rather they spent the time on things which can kill people: no one ever died from hurt feelings.
 

Offline switchabl

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2023, 05:31:56 pm »
Here is the thing though: It is the importer into the EU (or UK) who is responsible for the product meeting safety standards. It is not the job of the Chinese seller. If you buy a single item from China you are responsible for the safety. If you are not sure then better buy only from accredited importers (and pay the premium).

I think there is a misunderstanding there. Buying a single item for end use doesn't make you an "importer" in the context of EU regulation. You only become an importer by "placing it on the EU market".

[If you are actually interested in the details, look at the "Blue Guide". It does not make for light reading: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:52022XC0629(04) ]

So it is technically the job of the Chinese seller (and technically for some product categories they are actually obligated to have a representative in the EU). This does at least put it into the purview of market surveillance, so if a product is found to be dangerous and the seller does not cooperate, they can at least order platforms like Amazon or eBay to remove the listing.

Clearly everyone (including the European Commission) knows that this is not a particularly effective solution in practice.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2023, 06:58:29 pm »
This guy bought a cheap charger and it wrecked his expensive camera.
Not a charger but PSU that replaces battery. Also it wasn't that cheap, £40 ($49) for low power PSU is not cheap.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2023, 08:33:38 pm »
Expecting the platform to take responsibility is the only sensible option. I doubt they would get away with allowing listings for guns and stealth knives to countries where they're prohibited.
You won't find guns on AliExpress because I'm sure their sales are highly controlled in China as well.

But funny that you mention that, because I heard you can actually buy some restricted gun parts and accessories disguised as everyday items on AE. I suppose there is some whack-a-mole going on with those sellers, but that stuff exists.

Truth is, you have no jurisdiction over the sellers and the platform will only make half-assed attempts to look like they are trying something so you can't say that they aren't. And they also wouldn't care at all if they didn't have business presence locally. Try going after some knife seller who is not using an international platform.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2023, 08:38:25 pm by magic »
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2023, 09:30:43 am »
Thing is the likes of ebay, Amazon etc. have got the money to pay the lawyers to avoid the blame for allowing products like this to sold via thier systems. It's how the gig economy works to a certain extent.

Going back to BC, I like his videos and some are rather informative but at the same time he has a following that are expecting things to melt etc it's part of his routine much like ElctroBoom shocking himself. So Clive is going to look for the dangerous stuff, partly to inform but also to give his viewers what they want.

I am often worried by the stuff being sold in the really cheap shops. Makes me wonder how much is fake copies of brands or just dangerous stuff.
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Offline soldarTopic starter

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2023, 10:16:32 am »
So what exactly is he doing if not importing it? ::)
It isn't as though the buyer is going to China, and bringing the item into the country with him. The seller is exporting it to him.
One thing does not preclude the other. The seller is exporting and should abide by his country's laws and the buyer is importing and should abide by his country's laws.

In terms of a private person importing for his private use it does not matter at all whether he has it shipped or whether he brings it with him. I have bought a lot of things in China which I have brought back with me and I have bought many things which I have had shipped. In the end I am responsible.

In the end the buyer has to take responsibility for his acts. The State does not have the means to protect us from ourselves nor should they. If every little import had to be inspected and tested then that would be the end of this type of small scale purchases.

Note that the State does not have the means to inspect even all of large shipments so they do random inspections and catch only a few non-compliant products. Many get past.

Having 100% inspected is just not feasible and inspecting 100% of small packages and every suitcase that people bring into a country is just absolutely impossible and attempting anything resembling that would bring a country to a halt. Maybe North Korea could try something like that.

A person has to understand that if he buys anything from shady sellers he is taking the risk himself. If he is not qualified to judge he should buy only from very safe sources. The same when investing money, etc. I do not want a State that micromanages my life.
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2023, 12:06:16 pm »
So what exactly is he doing if not importing it? ::)
It isn't as though the buyer is going to China, and bringing the item into the country with him. The seller is exporting it to him.
One thing does not preclude the other. The seller is exporting and should abide by his country's laws and the buyer is importing and should abide by his country's laws.

In terms of a private person importing for his private use it does not matter at all whether he has it shipped or whether he brings it with him. I have bought a lot of things in China which I have brought back with me and I have bought many things which I have had shipped. In the end I am responsible.
The seller has the opportunity to inspect the goods and should know the law in the country they're exporting to.

There is a big difference between going to China, buying an item and bringing it home with you vs ordering online. In a real market, you get to see the item and inspect it before purchasing it, which you can't do remotely and the number of people who travel to China to buy things is vastly smaller than those who order them online

Quote
In the end the buyer has to take responsibility for his acts. The State does not have the means to protect us from ourselves nor should they. If every little import had to be inspected and tested then that would be the end of this type of small scale purchases.
If you're going to make that argument then why not just abolish all health and safety laws? It's a straw man. The seller should take the lion's share of the responsibility.

Quote
Note that the State does not have the means to inspect even all of large shipments so they do random inspections and catch only a few non-compliant products. Many get past.

Having 100% inspected is just not feasible and inspecting 100% of small packages and every suitcase that people bring into a country is just absolutely impossible and attempting anything resembling that would bring a country to a halt. Maybe North Korea could try something like that.

A person has to understand that if he buys anything from shady sellers he is taking the risk himself. If he is not qualified to judge he should buy only from very safe sources. The same when investing money, etc. I do not want a State that micromanages my life.
How does the buyer know the seller is shady?

It's not practical to inspect everything, but that doesn't mean nothing can be done to tackle the problem. Trading standards should clamp down on the likes of eBay who list dangerous products. All they need to do is buy a few dodgy products from eBay, report the sellers and take legal action against eBay, if they don't do anything about it.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2023, 01:41:58 pm »
The seller has the opportunity to inspect the goods and should know the law in the country they're exporting to.
LMAO, why would anyone study the laws of some remote shithole that others are ordering his products from?
Isn't your own shithole enough of a pain in the ass to deal with?

How does the buyer know the seller is shady?
In a real market, you get to see the item and inspect it before purchasing it, which you can't do remotely
Maybe that's how you know it.
You haven't inspected it. You know no one else has. You are ordering form a 3rd world hellhole demoralized by decades of communism.
Caveat emptor, anyone? ;D

It's not practical to inspect everything, but that doesn't mean nothing can be done to tackle the problem. Trading standards should clamp down on the likes of eBay who list dangerous products. All they need to do is buy a few dodgy products from eBay, report the sellers and take legal action against eBay, if they don't do anything about it.
Ebay isn't doing nothing. I'm sure selling illegal products is against their ToS. If you report products lacking the China Export mark or if you have proof that the mark is fraudulent, I'm sure they will be delisted.

And then re-added tomorrow by the same guy. What exactly is supposed to be done about it?
 


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