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Big Clive and Copper-Clad Wire

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coppice:

--- Quote from: soldar on October 21, 2023, 08:18:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: themadhippy on October 21, 2023, 06:07:09 pm ---
--- Quote ---And which country would require foreign vendors to do its tax collection?
--- End quote ---
The uk post brexit for one

--- End quote ---
Um, no. That's not right. The UK can require corporations which work in the UK to collect taxes from UK buyers. It absolutely cannot require foreign vendors to do anything at all. The foreign vendor is not collecting tax for the UK. Amazon, operating in the UK, is collecting tax for the UK from buyers in the UK. The foreign vendor has nothing to do with these taxes.

The UK does it just like other countries do it. It's not like they've invented anything.

--- End quote ---
Since a few months ago, if you buy anything on AliExpress from the UK they add UK VAT to the price, and state this is an agreement they have with the UK government.

soldar:

--- Quote from: coppice on October 21, 2023, 09:44:38 pm ---Since a few months ago, if you buy anything on AliExpress from the UK they add UK VAT to the price, and state this is an agreement they have with the UK government.
--- End quote ---
Aliexpress is a doing business in the UK and the UK government requires them to collect taxes from UK buyers.  If a UK buyer is buying a widget through aliexpress (or ebay or amazon, etc) from a seller in China, the seller collects no tax and does not care about the tax. He can be selling to twenty different countries through the platform and it is the platform who is collecting the tax from the buyer and passes it to the buyer's government.  There is no collection of taxes in origin, it is all in destination. Aliexpress in the UK collects tax money from the buyer in the UK and passes it on to the british Government. The tax is never collected in China, it is not paid by the seller. It is paid by the buyer in the UK to the Government of the UK. The seller who sells through Aliexpress neither knows nor cares about this. He is selling to twenty different countries and does not care what the buyers need to pay. That is what the platform does.

In the USA each state has a different tax and the platforms collect from the buyer and pay the State. The seller in China is not concerned with this in the least. He gets exactly the same price and later the platform adds the tax and charges the buyer.

Anyone who thinks all those small sellers in China are collecting taxes for hundreds of different jurisdictions all over the world is very misinformed. Those small sellers do not even have the capacity to do that. It would be crazy to think they are submitting to each American state and to each country in the world collected taxes which may amount to cents only. That is precisely what the platforms do.

coppice:

--- Quote from: soldar on October 21, 2023, 10:57:08 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on October 21, 2023, 09:44:38 pm ---Since a few months ago, if you buy anything on AliExpress from the UK they add UK VAT to the price, and state this is an agreement they have with the UK government.
--- End quote ---
Aliexpress is a doing business in the UK and the UK government requires them to collect taxes from UK buyers.  If a UK buyer is buying a widget through aliexpress (or ebay or amazon, etc) from a seller in China, the seller collects no tax and does not care about the tax. He can be selling to twenty different countries through the platform and it is the platform who is collecting the tax from the buyer and passes it to the buyer's government.  There is no collection of taxes in origin, it is all in destination. Aliexpress in the UK collects tax money from the buyer in the UK and passes it on to the british Government. The tax is never collected in China, it is not paid by the seller. It is paid by the buyer in the UK to the Government of the UK. The seller who sells through Aliexpress neither knows nor cares about this. He is selling to twenty different countries and does not care what the buyers need to pay. That is what the platform does.

In the USA each state has a different tax and the platforms collect from the buyer and pay the State. The seller in China is not concerned with this in the least. He gets exactly the same price and later the platform adds the tax and charges the buyer.

Anyone who thinks all those small sellers in China are collecting taxes for hundreds of different jurisdictions all over the world is very misinformed. Those small sellers do not even have the capacity to do that. It would be crazy to think they are submitting to each American state and to each country in the world collected taxes which may amount to cents only. That is precisely what the platforms do.

--- End quote ---
AliExpress has no operations in the UK. If I want to buy from a shop on AliExpress I am buying from the Chinese AliExpress company in China, and they handle charging me, and often delivery, on behalf of the small local traders they represent.

soldar:

--- Quote from: coppice on October 21, 2023, 11:04:23 pm ---AliExpress has no operations in the UK. If I want to buy from a shop on AliExpress I am buying from the Chinese AliExpress company in China, and they handle charging me, and often delivery, on behalf of the small local traders they represent.
--- End quote ---
Aliexpress has offices and bank accounts in UK and can be sued in the UK. Same as eBay and Amazon.

--- Quote ---https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06030390
ALIEXPRESS LIMITED
Company number 06030390
Registered office address
Flat B, 13 Dawes Road, London, England, SW6 7DT
--- End quote ---
And I do not know if they have brick and mortar stores in UK which they do in EUland.

At any rate, at the volumes those platforms operate it becomes necessary for them to use their own containers, sorting, delivery, etc. so it is unavoidable for them to operate in the destination country if there is any significant volume.

When I have bought anything from China through those big platforms I do not remember ever having received the item posted from China. They have operations where they ship entire containers and then mail from there because it is much cheaper, faster and efficient that way.

As far as the physical package is concerned my government doesn't even know it originates in China.

soldar:
The way I understand it, in very general terms, is as follows.

The laws on VAT or sales tax burden the buyer always. The taxable subject is the buyer.

The laws place a duty on some sellers subject to the jurisdiction of those laws to collect the taxes and pass them on to the government. They cannot and do not place such obligation on sellers outside their jurisdiction.

It is false that a buyer would pay the tax, and send the money, to a foreign seller, out of jurisdiction, who would then turn around and send it back to the buyer's jurisdiction. It makes no sense. The money would be converted to a foreign currency and then back again. The seller could just not send it back. The scheme makes no sense in any sense.

Imported goods are supposed to pay duties and taxes at the moment of import, when they become subject to the jurisdiction of the law.

Governments have customs and border controls just for this purpose.

But governments realize it is foolhardy to try to inspect and collect millions of small, low value, packages and they have twisted the arms of the big platforms to collect the taxes for them. Which makes sense.

But if I buy outside of these big platforms from some outfit in China there is no way they would collect any VAT or sales tax and remit it to any western government. They simply cannot do it. I, as the buyer, am responsible for paying VAT and duty when the goods arrive in my jurisdiction. And that is the way it was before the platforms had any agreement to collect taxes. No European tax money went to China, ever.

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